Fullerton Will Not Solicit Information From Sheriff
Last night the City Council voted 3-2 against asking the OC Sheriff to provide information about their cost to take over police services in Fullerton.
Chaffee and Quirk went with the public employee union pearl-clutchers, as expected, as did Greg Sebourn. Bruce Whitaker and Travis Kiger voted to seek additional information about providing public services, a reasonable position, you would think.
The Old Guard and the cop union turned this into a life and death issue, which maybe for them, it is. Even old Bankhead and Flory tottered up to speak. The idea of possibly saving millions means nothing to them, and never did.
Perhaps the most interesting this is that Sebourn’s vote puts the lie to the anti-recall goons who insist that the recall replacement candidates are lock-step puppets for anybody.
This is great news. The gas is out of the balloon and the goons will go back to eating their donuts.
Bringing this up now was really dumb politics. Sebourn should be thanked by FFFF.
Reform is never easy.
Nothing but corruption can explain this vote of not even wanting to consider a possible solution.
Unions are corrupt and they corrupt others, particularly those in position of power.
Just keep voting the corrupt, like Sebourn, out of office until the corruption is gone or has little voice.
Smart decision. Best decision Fullerton has made in years. Losing your own PD would be a terrible mistake.
Now concentrate on facts. Work together. Ignore the haters.
agree, now just need a changing of the guard and get rid of Hughes
Yep. Hughes will revert back to Captain and an outside Chief will come in. Fresh. Used to be something that made the most sense but not sure now. Appears Hughes has done good things and is well liked among many including the politicians.
Except that he saw the video 300 times and clearly stated that once we saw it it would change our minds too. You can fool some of the people some of the time but …… Anyway the cuts have to be done somewhere before the infrastructure becomes so decrepit that a 6.5 on the Whittier Narrows will put raw sewage into our drinking water for 6 months to a year until they figure out from where it is coming. We have larger problems than our roads. The self preservation last night was so misguided in so many ways and I firmly believe we were given a staunch reminder by the Almighty. Funny green paper wont get you a cup of coffee if effluent is coming out of the tap. I would like to see come contingency planning in this town that doesn’t involve donning tactical gear, paramilitary training exercises in crowd control suppressing the masses. We the citizens deserve some shepherding and leadership by our elected officials. The threats we face as a community including but not limited to the physical and economic threat by our very own police department are still taking a back seat to selfish ambition of a select few and that was painstakingly obvious last night.I know there are those courageous enough to face the obstacles and the unknown head on without doing it looking through a cocktail glass. These are the days that will try men’s souls. I cannot wait for pomegranate season.
Sebourn took leadership by showing his independence and not lock-step or taking orders from one person or one small group. Sebourn listens and represents ALL of Fullerton.
Besides, soliciting information costs money, which Fullerton does not have the resources at the time to do so due to other pressing matters before the city.
FPD have 3 years left in the contract…why on earth would a city council wants to shoot themselves in the foot with a knee jerk solicitation for the stake of insider politics maneuvers.
Get a clue before anyone attacks Sebourn.
I don’t know what Sebourn’s motives were and I don’t care. It was bad politics but remains a good idea.
There would have been no cost, dummy.
He really should be thanked by FFFF. He’s shown others that Tony clearly didn’t buy “his” recall candidates.
That’s a stretch!!!!
Think of it as a compliment. Tony wanted the best possible government for Fullerton. Buy candidates? PFFT! No way! After all, look at Sebourn.
It’s a compliment.
“Tony wanted the best possible government for Fullerton.”
Duchess II, do you really know what that sounds like? Presumably innocent statements like that fuel the perception that the Council was bought and paid for, regardless of it’s true or not. It’s cool to be down with the cause, but get a grip.
Whatever Warren Christopher. You’re right. It was meant to be an innocent statement. Can you see my point though? You lost a round, which shows the complete oppositeno candidate was bought.
You’re making a huge assumption. You’re “if-then” doesn’t hold water, and yes, I see your point.
Well, I’m sorry you feel that way and respect your opinion.
Duchess II, I’m just playing devil’s advocate. I respect your opinion as well.
🙂 Much appreciated
Orange County Taxpayers will pay for the cost with the limited resources the OCSD has to even submit the solicitation…Who is the dummy now. What a fool you are!
You said “Fullerton does not have the resources at the time…”
Read what you write.
Actually, Fullerton doesn’t have staff resources to put the report in the Council packet. It will take up time and resources during council meeting to even discuss the item. That too…you idiot! Geez…I am sick and tired of short sighted people.
Tell me you’re joking. Please tell me you’re joking.
No resources to put a report in a packet? Jesus H. those are some really pathetic bureaucrats ya got there.
It involves multiple stages. There’s no cost to the city for Phase 1. After that, there is a cost. And that’s just financial, not in terms of morale and strife.
Sebourn will apparently vote for this in 2014, when negotiations will be (and should be) taking place.
You have no idea what you’re talking about do you?
My advice for you is to start going to Brea City Council meetings and ask YOUR city council how they’re going to deal with YL share of YOUR unfunded pension liability.
Yep. Brea is now stuck with Yorba Linda’s pension liability. They’re screwed.
Greg Diamond has no input on the subject because he doesn’t understand the difference between funded and unfunded liabilities.
Here’s the example i like to use: people say that it takes something like $1 million to raise a child to adulthood. If you have $1 million in the bank before you have a child in an account dedicated to childrearing, that’s “funded.” If you expect to pay that money over time based on other income, that’s “unfunded.” If you don’t have a child because you don’t have $1 million in the bank and are afraid of unfunded obligations, it’s just as well that you don’t have a child.
That’s a cute analogy. It’s also not applicable to pension funds at all. Try reading a CalPERS annual statement. Beware: they may be past your grade level.
Brea seems pretty well-governed. I response to problems. For example, your anger-management issues.
By the way, your reply was a non-sequitur. Read my comment again (or for the first time, whichever.)
No, I read it. It was wrong. As usual.
So are you saying any of the below, and if so, which?
(1) The OCSD bid process (starting with a report) doesn’t involve multiple stages?
(2) There is a cost to the city for the first stage?
(3) There is not a cost afterwards?
(4) There’s no cost in police morale to taking steps towards budget negotiations with three years left on a contract?
(5) There’s no cost in strife, ditto above?
(6) Negotiations will take place in 2014?
(7) Negotiations should take place in 2014?
(8) Based on his statements of last night, Sebourn would be expected to vote for a bid from OCSD at that time?
You’re one of those guys who gets away with saying others are wrong generally. If you’re not skeered, I’d like to pin you down to just what you mean when you say “it was wrong.”
Don’t you have a State Senate campaign to focus on?
Oh, that’s right. You’re the 30% patsy.
Yeah, I had been meaning to hit you up for a donation.
Seriously, your concern for my campaign is touching.
I wouldn’t want to be the first to waste money on you.
If it’s a waste of money, don’t worry; I have a little under 200 donors so far, so you wouldn’t be the first. I think that you’re afraid that I’d put it to good use!
200 donors? That’s impressive. Are you up to $1000 yet?
I’ve got enough for ballot statements. Do the math.
Maybe you’ll have a few bucks left over for some Greg Diamond balloons.
OK, WHO LEAKED MY STRATEGY???
Seriously, “Kimchi,” you’re so worked up over last night’s swan dive into an empty swimming pool that it’s cracking me up.
I bet Obama has a good used teleprompter that he would sell on the cheap.
It would work much better than reading oratories from a small book at the podium.
You didn’t like my public comment? That’s so sad. Luckily, other people did.
When you have a limited time for a comment and plenty to say, sometimes it makes sense to write things down. I still managed to put some emotion into, though, don’t you think?
Sorry, Greg. Your presentation was too contrived for me. For all I know it could have been authored by someone else. How would I know?
I have an automatic bias against people who must read from a speaker’s podium. It does not impact me. It’s like someone reading to me from a book. I go to sleep.
If you are going to speak publicly I suggest you take the time to practice so you don’t need to read. Notes are okay as long as you don’t act disorganized and you maintain eye contact with your audience.
Someone said that you are running for a political office. If that’s true you need to buy a teleprompter or take a speech class. Otherwise it’s going to be a hard row to hoe.
You hit a home run last night, Greg. There are a lot of really sore bungholes around here today so you’ll have to excuse the grumpiness.
Thank you for being so nice to me, but I’m afraid that it was … contrived! Boo-hoo-hoo-hoooo!
“Contrived”? Hokay….
Thanks for the advice. I often speak without notes, but not usually when facing a three-minute timer (with material I had written within the past hour or two.)
To be fair, negotiations should be taking place late this year. The city should assume that the FOPA’s option for 2014 will not be renewed. Assuming otherwise is just bad business practice. It’s an exclusive option for the FPOA, but the city should be prepared either way (otherwise it wouldn’t be called an option.)
Assuming we do need a new contract by the end of 2013, we should also assume at least 12 months to formulate a new contract, comparison shop, iron out issues (which are substantial at this point), evaluate the viability of alternative options, assess the performance of a new police chief, blah blah blah.
In other words, unless you’re willing to hand the keys over to the FPOA and not expect them to hold you hostage by demanding a renegotiation at the end of your current term AND you’re willing to do a half ass job in your research, you should be getting your PRELIMINARY quotes for service from your alternative agencies no later than Jan 1, 2013.
Anyone with any limited experience in procurement in the private sector will tell you the same thing. Anyone telling you otherwise probably hasn’t had any experience in the private arena.
Go to Hell for killing Jesus you racist Pig Greg Diamond.
Ewww.
Comments like these take away from the legitimacy of the blog– but more importantly — take away from legitimate criticism of Greg Diamond.
Take your hate and backward thinking elsewhere.
Thanks for, uh, having my back. I particularly appreciate the “more importantly” part!
No, I saw the Mayor’s husband at the Council meeting last night; he’s fine.
And you, sir, are not a nice person!
It is worth noting here that Sebourn ran on and publicly defended exploring the cost benefit of replacing the FPD with the OC Sheriff. On record prior to the June 5 election are his comments during the LWVOC candidate forum and his conversation with Greg Diamond on O.J. Blog. And immediately following the election, while being interviewed by LA Times at the Pint House, he again stated his desire to explore the cost benefit of out-sourcing the FPD.
I too took a position on this issue while running for the Bankhead seat in the recall election. But mine was opposite of Sebourn’s position (during the campaign). I am curious whether any of his supporters regret his about-face on this issue.
The clever spin in this blog post to make it appear as if this insurrection was proof that Sebourn is not under Tony’s spell doesn’t square with what I saw after the council meeting last night. There by Sebourn’s van was Tony impatiently waiting to have a few words with Sebourn about his new found independence.
“It is worth noting here that Sebourn ran on and publicly defended exploring the cost benefit of replacing the FPD with the OC Sheriff”
Nice catch, Jane.
So that pretty much says it all, doesn’t it? Can he be trusted on anything going forward?
Are you folks going to take this lying down?
That’s my question.
You gave a good presentation at the meeting last night, Jane. And you didn’t even need cue cards or a book to read from!!! Nice job!!!
“There by Sebourn’s van was Tony impatiently waiting to have a few words with Sebourn about his new found independence.”
Why does that mean he is under Tony’s spell?
What say you, Mr. Sebourn? I agree that you owe voters an explanation for pandering to a bunch of folks in blue shirts.
Didn’t he say that and did explore how the process works and with those facts, discussions, and thoughts learned that going that route right now is not the right move with the contracts in place? Doesn’t mean he won’t do it next year when it makes more sense.
I absolutely love your honesty Jane, as well as your passion for all things Fullerton.
Although we aren’t of the same political party Jane, I will do my level best to see that your elected in November, because I believe that your commitment to Fullerton is altruistic, and that’s what matters to me.
Thank you for clearing that up. It’s one thing to give an opinion, as I poorly gave, but it’s another to hear the facts from you. Yes, it would be nice to hear an explanation from Sebourn whenever he gets the chance. However, it would also be nice to hear an explanation from Tony also.
Jane, do you have a link to my conversation with Sebourn on that topic? I recall having a discussion on the prospects of municipal bankruptcy, but I don’t specifically recall that.
I think that Sebourn still DOES favor exploring the costs and benefits of replacing the FPD with the OCSD. The question before him last night was whether to pursue that process now, with three years to go on the contract, or do to so at a more conventional and useful (and less obnoxious) time. He still seems to want to do it, but not necessarily RIGHT NOW. His seat doesn’t expire until the end 2014, after all — the year that this will all be hashed out.
It looks to me that Whitaker and Kiger have the desire to act while Kiger is still on the council, which perhaps they suspect may not be that long.
I’m sorry if Tony was laying in wait for Sebourn. Sebourn could of course bring it up again if he changes his mind, but it would be an unnecessary and pointless humiliation.
The conversation in OJ Blog was over bankrupting the city and not on outsourcing cops. Sorry my mistake. Such similar arguments. Thanks for pointing that out.
However, Sebourn did say he supported exploring outsorucing cops during the candidate forum May 10, 2012 hosted by the league of women voters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYpXoAhSlAg
It was also a question possed to the candidate by Gary Graves for his Fullerton Voters Guide. Below is the question and the answers given by Sebourn.
Q: Are you willing to consider outsourcing the Police and/or Fire Departments?
A: Yes
Q: Please explain your answer about outsourcing police/fire departments
A: Only a fool would not consider all of their options and outsourcing to other agencies is one of many options.However, Fullerton’s fire fighters are among the lowest paid in Orange County. Recent looks at consolidating the FFD with other fire departments appears to make any consolidation an expensive proposition with no savings. To date, the City of Fullerton shares the fire chief and a battalion chief with the City of Brea. There are other possibilities which should be explored and considered before any long-lasting decisions are made. These include department reorganization, contracting with the OC Sheriff and OC Fire Authority, consolidation of certain services with neighboring cities, and privatization of some or all services. Leaders must keep an open mind to exploring new ideas.
Not trying to beat a dead horse. Just correcting my earlier mistake.
OK, that makes sense.
I think we differ mainly is that being willing to consider outsourcing the FPD does not imply being willing to start that process three freaking years before the contract expires. I still expect that Sebourn would stand by that statement — and probably will agree to such a study in mid-2013 (if not before.)
I would imagine that Tony’s words with Greg were not about his “independence” but about the vote itself and its merits (or lack thereof). But if none of us actually heard the conversation we are all guessing.
I didn’t make it late enough to hear your comments Jane but I’ll go back and look at the tape. Personally I think that Greg should have voted to get a cost estimate from OCSD if for no other reason then to prove to the public that a union sending out hundreds of cops and their supporters in the lamest and ugliest t-shirts imaginable in order to exert pressure on a city council should not be a reason to reject getting a cost estimate.
But, regardless, I’m glad you posted that. Post here more often!
Well, two of “us here” did hear the conversation — and they both know how to type.
Typed it up yet?
I didn’t hear the conversation. Tony and Greg S. did.
It sounds to me like it was a PRIVATE conversation.
Perhaps you should call in the FBI, or practice up on your lip reading skills, or buy a sound amplification listening device, or plant a listening “bug” in every lampost if you are so concerned about being privy to every private conversation.
I’m not demanding that either of them release openly what was said. I’m just pointing out that they could.
And what is this about “every private conversation”? The relationship between Sebourn and his major donor is of serious and significant public interest; that wasn’t just any old conversation.
How often have I seen people here deny that Tony has any undue influence over the candidates that he’s supported? Well, I guess we’re about to find out, eh?
Not saying it’s a good idea to switch to Sheriffs, but what’s the harm in getting a “quote” on what it would cost Fullerton? I would think it could only help city council make a better decision.
It’s useless information this far ahead of negotiations. Meanwhile, people can spend the next two years calculating the correlations between OCSD bid amounts and what their service ends up costing in practice. Checking out the situation in Yorba Linda, for example, will be very instructive.
Just admit it. Quirk is a tool of the FPOA.
Actually Chaffee, Quirk and Sebourne are all tools. Quirk is channeling Jones, yes I know he’s alive, they probably meet every day or so to discuss how she should handle situations. I have the satisfaction of knowing I didn’t vote for Chaffee and Sebourne, or for that matter Quirk for Sacremento.
Best thing Quirk ever did was mention socks. Fooled everyone.
Actually, it’s very valuable stuff. This was a preliminary request, not a final bid for services.
There’s a lot of reform left to be done at the FPD. We ought to know what starting from scratch looks like. It’ll take more than 6 months to figure that out. I think getting the estimate in by 1/1/2013 is really the drop dead date.
Yeah, it’s “Step 1,” as I say above just before Joe Sip accused me of lying about it.
There was good discussion at the meeting about why it was pretty much useless at this point, part of it focusing on Yorba Linda’s recent experience, part on OCSD’s broader history of bid making, and part focusing on how and whether their services would be comparable (and who’d cover change orders.)
If you can rebut all that, I’d be impressed. Until then, no.
I’ll take a shot at it. Rebut what? The arguments made over 2 hours, most of which I missed, or just these?
In reverse order . . .
Of course they’re not comparable. That’s entirely the point. We’re looking for an estimate to baseline the minimum financial cost for basic public safety in Fullerton. Making an intelligent decision based on the delta of what we actually get service wise vs. the minimum standard from OCSD is what it’s all about. Looking to go apples for apples is stupid and not at all the point. If we _were_ going to the OCSD, articulating what level of service we’d expect to lose is absoltely something that should be made available to the public, but we’re no where near that point yet (more of a Define gate deliverable for details, Select for generalities).
If you’re concerned with change orders, require your bid to be inclusive and refuse to pay (for what we’d call in the industry) time and material. A flat bid is a flat bid. You’re an attorney– I don’t need to lecture you about contracts.
Yorba Linda is a completely different animal. They looked at replacing one contract with another contract. We’re talking about replacing a wholly owned department with a contractor, which takes SIGNIFICANTLY more time and careful attention to analyze properly. “Yorba Linda” is a red herring.
This information is absolutely useful. If we were making a $200MM investment in a company or project, we’d be looking at the decision probably 5-10years out. This is really project management 101. Look at your options (6m), select your preferred path (6m), build a plan (12m), execute the plan (6m), operate the asset. We’re also talking about part time decision makers, which extends the time required to step through each gate.
Now, can this wait until after the November election? Probably. Should it have passed last night? Eh . . . I dunno, but I don’t like that it didn’t given the amount of time and money the FPOA put in to shooting the option down. I don’t exactly get warm and fuzzy about the FPOA spending more time and money blocking an initial estimate from the OCSD than they do condemning the bad officer behavior associated with Kelly Thomas’s death– let alone the amount of time they spent writing traffic tickets to protesters.
Ryan, if you want to have a rational discussion you KNOW that this is not the place for it. Meet you back home.
I favor the city asking the OCSD whether it would sign a contract in which Fullerton “require[s the] to be inclusive and refuse[s] to pay (for what we’d call in the industry) time and material. A flat bid is a flat bid.”
That would make this a very short-lived controversy, the only question being whether the OCSD would befoul the written answer before sending it out.
I’ve dealt with a fair number of commercial contracts as an attorney. You’re right, you don’t need to lecture me about contracts. I may have to lecture you, though, about the differences between theory and practice when it comes to avoiding change orders. It’s much less easy that you infer.
I think I’ve got more experience on this one than you, sir. I’ll skip the lecture, but I willingly concede that it’s not as simple as securing a flat risk-free bid to replace a roof.
You may have more experience with writing contracts. I think that I have more experience with litigating them. In New York, much of what I did was construction litigation. Ugly stuff.
Is there ANYTHING this guy doesn’t know more about than the rest of us> Good job Ryan. You make way more sense than ” Mr. say anything (everything to make my point”
Yes, there are plenty of things that others know about more than I do. Construction litigation over contract disputes just happens to have been part of my law practice as an associate in NYC. Ryan’s a smart guy, but there’s a difference between writing a contract and doing to sort of forensic analysis necessary to litigate it. I’m sorry if my noting that offends you.
Did you see the Channel 9 interview with Ron Thomas? That answered everything. He said reforms have been made. He’s happy with the status. He thinks FPd should stay. That means he’s going to settle soon and this is all over soon.
If everything is now been resolved in his opinion, maybe he should drop the lawsuit that he has against The City of Fullerton. What better way to show his solidarity with the FPD than letting the lawsuit disappear and the city has a whole heal its wounds.
Just a thought……………..
That would be convenient, wouldn’t it? All those depositions that would ooze the facts of who did what when would simply not happen, and the truth would never be known. That’s what you’re really suggesting, isn’t it? Or are you simply concerned about where all the money would go that could be used to defend the remaining lawsuits against Fullerton’s Fattest?
Thomas gets nada ’til after a trial.
If Ron gets anything it will be 1mil. His ex-wife set the price.
This ISSUE should be put on the BALLOT for November….. Let the PEOPLE decide !!!!!!!!!!
People can’t decide on every damn thing. You are such a whinning baby.
We elect councilmembers to do what is right for Fullerton. If you don’t like councilmembers decisions, then do a damn recall or vote in the upcoming November election.
It is time to bring Fullerton together not divide the city much further for the stake of politics!
What does that mean “bringing the city together”? I keep hearing that over and over again. Seriously, what does that actually mean? That we all think that not solving problems if that might offend someone (like the police) is better than solving them? I don’t get it. Just empty rhetoric for preserving the status quo. And the status quo at FPD was police brutality, don’t forget.
You don’t think disbanding the FPD is important enough for a local referendum? What’s been the goal of this whole exercise. Sebourn stuck his head in the Lion’s mouth and didn’t like it.
Dear Au Courant – Not every little ‘whim of the people’ need be on the ballot. That’s why we elect a council.
Christine Walker, of Fullerton, waves a white hankerchief saying that the city of Fullerton needs to come together and “Get along”.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/department-367745-fullerton-police.html?pic=2
It was one hell of a speech.
For those of us not involved in the psychodrama, what are the current rifts within Kelly’s Army? Some of them were out last night supporting the FPD and what they say is its reforms; others appear to be ready to excommunicate these people. What’s going on here?
Christine just wanted a FREE t-shirt.
And why don’t you just mind your own business. Oh that’s right. You ain’t got one.
That’s just so weird. You don’t even care if it’s true and that you have no way of knowing that it’s true — unless you checked out my filings and realized that it’s false. Why do you say things like that?
Greg, why do you even deign to answer people such as these?
I think that at some deep level they realize that they look like idiots for saying this sort of stuff and they don’t like it. I am trying to hasten their journey to enlightenment. Plus, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel.
#149 by Champion Master on August 8, 2012
All they need is a piece of paper with numbers from Sheriff Sandra Hutchens, Council is just a formality. Hutchens has given Fullerton an option, the other OC cities dont have anymore, they are not taking any more cities.
The proposal would be good for future insight, and knowing the Cities position.
The Council should know those that show up at meetings represent themselves not the City as a whole.
Damn Tshirt whores, just kidding, doesnt look like they have much if any political influences anymore?
Im on the fence but, The City should know before deciding.
I hate seeing the Citizens get conned over and over again!
Times reporter Richard Winton will join City Editor Shelby Grad to discuss the Fullerton City Council’s decision not to begin exploring disbanding the Police Department and replacing it with the Orange County Sheriff’s Department.
The live chat is scheduled for 9 a.m. Wednesday.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/08/now.html
Greg ‘get tough on FPD’ Sebourn sure did a 180 after a lousy month in office, huh? Boy, he talked so tough during his campaign. He was going to rip FPD to shreds. One month in office and he folded like a Wal-Mart bed sheet.
Money and power wins again, my friends.
Can anyone explain to me why Ron Thomas wants to keep FPD? My God. FPD murdered his son and then tried hard to cover it up!!! Why would he want to keep them?
Justus;
I was just talking with someone about the motivation of Ron Thomas and I can’t come up with a reason why he would now back those who brutally murdered his son…………
Very, very surreal. Poor Kelly.
Maybe he wants to be appointed Police Chief. Can’t do that with OCSD.
However, nobody is going to appoint him dogcatcher.
Ron Thomas is just all talk and walked away with a settlement. I am sick and tired of hearing him speaking at every council meeting and before the TV news crew at every turn.
Because so much is coming out soon about him, that he wants the FPD to stand behind him when it does.
His position made sense for an advocate of possible change: he’s not opposed to soliciting “information” but he thinks that they should wait until union negotiations are ready to start, sparing the city a couple of years of a gaping rift between the PD and the citizens. That’s not “a 180.”
Yes, the Greg “The Brea Dumpster Diver” Diamond’s recommendation. Let’s be ignorant until the last minute and then take our chances.
The labor contract ends in 2015. Please define “the last minute” in a way that sentient organisms would think is at least remotely plausible.
I don’t think that’s true, Mr. Diamond. I believe the contract expires sooner with a 1 year option to extend.
Under what realistic circumstances would you expect the FPOA not to extend? I think the correct answer is “none.”
I wouldn’t put anything past Coffman. Really.
Should things improve for both the FPD’s reputation and the state economy, I see a situation where the FPD may feel they can get a better deal by negotiating with a less prepared council than a more prepared council AS WELL AS depending on who wins in November.
You’re arguing with a brick wall. Stop it.
How about the circumstance of a council seeking alternative solutions to a $10,000,000 problem?
Jesus, you’re either really dumb or really disingenuous.
OK, do we agree that if it was a 30-year contract ending in 2039, there would be little point in asking the OCSD in 2012 for an estimate of how much it would cost for them to replace the FPD? It would be useless and probably even counterproductive, right?
Well, the same principle applies, although with less force, for a contract that ends in 2015. Wait a year and then at that point you can at least argue that you’re getting something closer to useful information. Get it now?
BTW, ever hear of re-openers?
That decision will cost the taxpayers plenty. Thanks Sebourn.
We must be on the same page my friend. I was at the council meeting last night and the only word that comes to mind is Surreal. Where the hell was the folks who claim to be in Kellys Army? Only thing I saw was cops and their friends, fellow workers and family………………
Exactly! Where was “Kelly’s Army?” Geez. People moan and complain, but do nothing to change the cause.
Kelly’s Army fizzled like a chinese sparkler.
People have such short memories.
That is why nothing really changes.
You have politicians that tell you one thing then do the opposite and no one complains or holds them accountable.
Who hijacked Kelly’s Army? That’s what I want to know? Not one of the outspoken Kelly’s Army soldiers at the meeting last night.
My God. And then they complain when FPD violates more civil liberties.
You reap what you sow.
Are you blind JustU? There were plenty of Kelly supporters there.
Christine and others from Kelly’s Army were there and some spoke on the issue. They think that the FPD has made progress in reform over the past year and that local control is better. That’s where they were.
Christine is just trying to make nice because her days with Kelly’s rabble are numbered. She is such a tragedy whore!
I think it was the mass of public comments AGAINST the measure that really swayed Council Member Sebourn!! Power to the People!!
Are they really “public” comments when a large proportion of them are from police officers, their friends, or their families?
Showing up to speak against this would have made sense if what was on the agenda was a proposal to immediately disband FPD and go with OCSD. But it wasn’t. It was just trying to get an estimate. The police union purposely tried to cut this off at the knees because they know that an estimate will make FPD costs look inflated. The public bought into the whole “oh the poor Fullerton police’ line.
This fiasco really demonstrates the problems with public employee unions. I’m increasingly becoming convinced that these unions are lined up against the public good.
The cop union beat you folks bad last night. They didn’t beat you with a taser. They beat you with their influence because you let them. You put up no resistance. You only have yourselves to blame. And if you don’t chastise and condemn Sebourn for his ‘no’ vote then you deserve it all.
You came so far – then you gave up.
Very sad.
Well said. So true.
After what I saw last night, if I lived in Fullerton I would move.
You have your own cozy little police state there.
And silence is complicity.
Just Us. You and I have had good debates for a year. I said all along. The Kelly incident and Rons civil suit are two seperate things in my eyes. He wants money. If cops did bad, get them out. I’ve also said that cops are human. You will never eliminate the human mistake or error element. You can only minimize it. The noted incidents that people say make FPD a culture of corruption are minimal. If you took any other PD or OCSd you would end up with even more. Tony and his crew used these noted incidents to run their political agenda. Kelly will make FPD better in the future. Better leadership. Better discipline. Better policing. Ron will settle, the trial will end, and Fullerton will move into the future a better and more aware city. Just as I hoped and predicted all along.
Then stop butting in Fullerton’s business. It’s not your problem.
Based on what I saw last night and today, don’t be a bit surprised if Chief Sellers, Don Bankhead, Pat Mckinley and Dick Jones are now going to be returned to office with the endorsement of Ron Thomas and friends……………..
I love the comment of “there are people trying to rip the city apart.” Uh, I believe those “people” are the disgusting police officers who walk around as if they can beat, steal, sexually harass, cover-up, and lie to the public. The public has shone a big spotlight on all the bullshit that goes on that department. I don’t want to see FPD go, however, somebody needs to grab a broom and clean house. Now is the time for a 0 tolerance policy. If you cannot perform the job morally and loyally then remove them from the department. The officers need to fear losing their jobs if this nonsense continues.
Give it up. You are one of the lone wolfs left. You were defeated. Live with it.
Did LDX really get banned?
Look it here you pathetic human being. It’s lone wolves not lone wolfs…idiot. You need to close your idiotic, uneducated, illiterate mouth. You clearly have shown to have horrible grammar. Your horrible arguments become invalid as soon as you show you are incapable of writing a complete thought without any errors as if you are a 5 year old. You must be a police officer because you clearly are incapable of writing anything worth making sense.
Defeated? I think not. That P.D is under a microscope. I’m so glad to see that a person who is protecting the streets cannot complete a grammatically correct sentence. And you wonder why some officers act in violence…it’s because they are incapable to use any thought process. Case in point.
So hostile. You are the lonely wolf/wolves, whatever. You say iliterate or intellig ent. It doesn’t matter. All I know is you are a LOOSER. L/7..
You ever read a police report? There’s a lot of brilliant fiction to be found. Pulitzer material!
“If cops did bad, get them out. I’ve also said that cops are human”
Normal humans do not partake in murdering people. And normal humans do not support those who murder. That is simply not in the realm of being a normal ‘human’. FPD and it’s union is paying for the accused murderer’s legal fees. FPD employees provides security for the accused murderers. So this is not only about those who are accused of the horrendous crime. It is about those who support them. And I have not heard a single FPD officer condemn their actions. Normal humans do not act that way. Sorry.
“The noted incidents that people say make FPD a culture of corruption are minimal”
No. I just explained that. Those who support the ones who commit violations against civil liberties are as bad as those who actually commit them. Two peas in a pod.
“If you took any other PD or OCSd you would end up with even more”
That is your opinion and you have no facts whatsoever to back it up. A PD that has committed as many heinous violations as FPD needs real punishment. All I’ve seen so far are handslaps and finger wagging. FPD laughs at you.
“Ron will settle, the trial will end…..”
If that happens the respect I have for Ron Thomas goes poof. It’s gone. I have more faith in him than that and I suspect that Kelly does (did) too.
Justus;
I agree with your post.
But, I always like to say that there are two things that matter, opinion and empirical facts. The above is your and my opinion. The empirical fact is that the city council voted last night to not even look into the possibility of making change at the police department and save the taxpayers hard earned money. A vote was simply to get a competitive bid. Don’t we do that in our everyday lives? We shop for the best bargains from food, clothing, vehicles, appliances… everything. Why can’t we simply check to see what we are spending in relation to what others are for policing?
I am afraid that the city council in general and the three dissenters in particular went for the status quo and either were taken by or dragged Ron Thomas into the mix.
Just my opinion………….
Yes, anon.
If you think about it soliciting a bid would in itself help correct the ‘culture of corruption’ within FPD. FPD would know that the Council held a hammer over their heads. This would help promote self-policing and reform – the same with someone in the workplace when he or she is placed on “goals” and told to clean up their act or find another job. Just because the Council gets a bid does not mean that they are going to pull the trigger, right??? The excuse that it would ruin ‘morale’ at FPD is total bullcrap. If anything, it would make them clean up their acts. But now it’s business as usual. FPD knows that they can do whatever they want and get away with it – just like incorrigable children.
They won a big victory last night, anon. As I said, if I lived in Fullerton I would move. I lost a lot of faith in your City last night. I must be honest.
So did I my friend…………so did i.
The room was full of people who had genuine concerns over their futures and their families and rightfully so. If I were a Fullerton Police officer or a family member I would be concerned. In this economy no one is safe-no one. last night did nothing more than polarize the masses. The facts so clearly and calmly stated by Bruce and to a lesser extent Travis are not going to change and we will be forced to make more painful decisions sooner than most will be willing to grasp. All involved need to to take a deep breath and realize that there was no victory for anyone last night. The economy is being imploded by design. Revenues are declining as costs are increasing. This will never change. It is a simple J curve and compounding is exponential. It is foolish to think that no one has to give up anything but the taxpayers. Public safety has many facets including our own personal responsibilities. Law enforcement is just one of many. It cannot be protected at all costs. The department can be saved but as Sean Paden pointed out, we need true negotiations and not what we have had in the past. The bid is crucial and if not now we most certainly will have one in the future. Fullerton needs a tenable solution that will remain workable. Economic forces will take over from here so those opposed will be forced to get out of the way eventually. FPD can clean up their act but that will require a lot more than a room full of blue shirts. In the business world, the focus is never on what is done right but moreover almost always what is done wrong. The FPD can redeem itself but that comes with public repentance. We still have a chief that has seen the video 300 times and stated it would change our minds once we saw it. I saw a lot of ass kissing last night and that didn’t surprise me. What became clear to me was that many of those in attendance last night whom I know care so dearly about their wallets and yet for the last year remained remarkably silent about the brutal murder of Kelly Thomas and the subsequent attempted cover up as well as the questionable in custody death in the jail, the documented frame ups and the like. Last night clearly showed me the myopic short sighted concern with self preservation and the relationships with their friends over justice and sound economics. This is disturbing. This prevailing mindset dooms a population. You cannot ride the tiger forever folks. So we have a department whose reforms are in question but time will tell. We have a small segment of the public who are endeared to the FPD and have become very vocal. November will clearly show where this town is headed. I believe the forces that have been set in motion now cannot be stopped as the almighty dollar being the object of desire last night will rule those in attendance with much austerity in the future. A house divided most certainly will fall. I personally commend Bruce and Travis for trying to get out in front of what is certainly headed our way just like they did with the Kelly Thomas murder which was so cowardly referred to by many of those in attendance that spoke as an “incident”. To those that came out in support of the good officers and all that they do for our community, may none of you or your children ever end up on the wrong side of things with the Fullerton Police Department as it too according to your own standards will be just another “incident”. May God help our city in this time of division and may justice, logic, reason and sound judgement prevail with all of us and our leaders.
Wonderfully stated.
Wow, Truthseeker. I so wish you could have stood up last night and said these words to that audience. They were so short-sighted and, may I say, clueless. You nailed it on the head.
I stood down on purpose. I had a bad feeling about last night. Last night was a worship service, the first one I have ever witnessed in a council chambers. I was really horrified at the timing of the earthquake as it clearly was an omen. Folks were on the wrong side of things there last night. I believe that the blood of Kelly Thomas was crying out from the grave at the very moment Greg began waivering and cowering to the sea of blue that should have been black. They will see the light someday soon we can hope. The majority of voters will not swallow the sermon from last nights worship service in November.
Truth. Now you see why the pro police people didn’t dare show up at your council meetings that you owned. It’s intimidating. Expressing opinions is legal and ethical. War can be rough. Fillerton is at war. Citizens with a brain vs Tonys people.
Wrong, O’Malley. They didn’t show up because the stink of corruption would have required the place be fumigated.
The current council handed them an issue in which they could find a little daylight from their own Culture of Corruption. Not much, but a little.
Won’t happen again.
It is merely a battle of those who clutch their money and job security against a mass of people who know that murder is wrong especially under color of law. It is not however intimidating. When one is principled it is rather fulfilling. Cerebral functions need not be part of the equation as last night they appeared to be severely impaired by emotion.
I’m not Omaley Tony. You can scare old men but you can’t scare us citizens and cops that don’t give a crap about you. Imagine the celebration if Karma happened to catch up to you soon? Party.
And I might add that Greg opened his comments with a specific reference to the recent Kelly Thomas art exhibit. Just a weird night all in all period.
Truth, I am just concerned that your current council has already been hijacked. Like a cancer that was in remission for a short time it has now recurred. Now instead of the 3 stooges you have Quirk, Chafee and Sebourn. If your leaders go south on you, you have no chance of correcting or improving on the past. Sebourn made his statement loud and clear last night. Basically he said that it doesn’t matter what he said during his campaign. That was then and this is now. He said that he is backing the FPD and ‘what are you going to do about it?”.
Now the ball is back in the court of the Fullerton citizens. You can toss all your progress out the window by sitting back on your heels – or you can fight back. You folks should be going after Sebourn with a vengence today. But I don’t see it. I see complacency.
IMO they won and will continue to win until you can prove differently.
I am only honestly telling you what I see.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
So you can’t distinguish between “no” and “not yet”?
This is funny. I like Sebourn personally, although we disagree politically, and I sure don’t envy him having to depend politically on the subtlety of your wit.
What you probably meant to say is that you disagreed with Sebourn when he ran for Council. But with Sebourn’s vote last night you might be in the same camp.
Again, yesterday it was Jones, McKinley and Bankhead.
Today it likely could be Quirk, Chafee and Sebourn.
Same church, different pews.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I warned the good Fullertonians about this before the elections.
It looks like my instincts could prove to be righteous.
Truthseeker- Excellent analysis as usual- I think the bottom line here is that the inevitable has been slightly delayed. It’s simple math involved here. Smoke and mirrors have been deployed to try to thwart facts, but you are correct- economics forces are undeniable and sooner than later will rule the debate.
In time all the truth will come out. This whole thing is falling apart. Ron is going away, lawsuit is going away, FFFF going away……a lot more still to come…..The TRUTH!
1. Ron Thomas appears to be mainly out for Ron Thomas. Ever since he announced his ambition to become Mayor of Fullerton, one has to question his motivations. I also believe he will settle.
2. Kelly’s Army has splintered with some of the most committed activists now distancing themselves. Ron is probably happy, concluding that it has outlived its usefulness.
3. FPOA used their muscle to fill the Fullerton council chamber, essentially hijacking democracy by rallying their troops and supporters to not even consider what was just a competitive bid. They proved that they are only out for themselves, and hoodwinked much of the public in the process.
4. Sebourn caved to the pressure from FPOA and their supporters.
5. Whitaker and Kiger showed they are rational public servants and people with principles. Unfortunately they were outvoted.
6. Chafee and SQS show themselves as being in FPOA’s pocket. Has FPOA endorsed SQS yet? They will.
7. FPOA feeling the rush of victory will now do their utmost to prevent city council from hiring a police chief who would clamp down on misconduct or taking any other measures that would prevent them from continuing to be the merry band of thugs that they are.
8. Victory for the police state.
Just my opinion.
Accept defeat with grace.
Ron is already secretly negotiating with the city. Word is he is going to settle for a mil. because his skeletons will be made public……doesn’t it make sense after Ron’s display last night.
If that happens the respect I have for Ron Thomas goes poof. It’s gone. I have more faith in him than that and I suspect that Kelly does (did) too
Im sure Kelly Respected Daddy after he tossed him out of the house and filed restraining orders against his good son.
Kelly Thomas wasn’t the only guy murdered by a cop last year, lest we not forget. Ron Thomas is a pile of shit. Kelly’s Army is a joke. The memorial needs to be removed from the Transportation Center. Life needs to go on. Why doesn’t that asshole who chalks all over the place chalk something nice for our young people dying in Afghanistan. At this point, this is sickening.
Yes, I’m sure the cops murdered lots of people. Only one in Fullerton, though (that we know of).
Yes Joe, only one in Fullerton (that we know of). This is bigger than Fullerton. Fullerton is a microcosm of everything that’s wrong with “the system” nationwide.
He only cares about himself. Are you just catching on..Duh!
At least I’m catching on. LOL! The last six months have been eye-opening. You want to give each side the benefit of the doubt until they show who they really are.
The conclusion: Fullerton is a massive goatfuck that should be evaluating their bankruptcy strategy instead of replacing the Police Department.
I remember a couple of FFFF guys (who I respect), who are Libertarian, during the recall campaign. They were fawning over Scott Walker and the funny thing is that Walker won’t take on the LE establishment, either.
Like I said look more into the police dept. Hughes is hiding
A lot more than he is telling. For all of you who love Hughes he is a wolf in lambs clothing.
It’s all very simple. Why get a quote now for something you can’t have until 2015? Prices and things change. It’s pointless to even look at something you can’t have. Common sense. But then again Fullerton hasn’t used much common sense from either side over the last year.
Gee, I thought one of the big reasons for the recall election was to regain control of the city for the residents. Handing over the policing of the city to OCSD, because it made financial sense is pure myopia. Even Ron Thomas stated the problem was a few bad cops. You can argue about the definition of ‘a few’, but its not the department. As much as so many people of this blog bitch and moan about Hughes not doing enough; give him a break, he’s temporary, I doubt he wants the job on an appointed basis. I think he knows we need a new chief. The council and the PD need to clean house — not say the house is too dirty, lets move to a new house. Being so quick to dump the PD, and thus city control of it’s own policing, is a significant abdication of duty.
“Why get a quote now for something you can’t have until 2015?”
Easy answer. Because it would hold a hammer over FPD’s head basically saying ‘Clean up your act or you’re gone’.
“It’s pointless to even look at something you can’t have. Common sense”
No. It’s not pointless and it makes perfect sense.
Besides holding a hammer over FPD – once the bid it done it would be easy to update or treak it as the contract terms comes to an end.
And most contracts have an ‘escape clause’ that would allow Fullerton to exit the contract prior to 2015. Even if it cost extra to do it – with an annual savings of $7m-$15M it would be worth it.
My thoughts are that if the request for a bid from the OCSD was for 2013, I’d say that the lone city councilman that was elected in as a result of the recall sold us out.
However, because the OCSD wouldn’t be able to take over police services until 2015, I’m sure that the bid would be pointless as most bids have a 90 to 180 day window to accept the bid proposal.
I also thought that it was nice of the FPOA to hand out all of the free T-shirts to the homeless, and promise to stop harassing them, if they showed up at the city council chambers for a few hours last night.
Hey Fullerton Lover;
I haven’t talked to you you in a while but I remember when we were both on the corner of the baseball field talking and gathering signatures during the time leading up to the recall. We were there during the St. Mary’s carnival. Heck, we were the only ones on the corner that day. Both of us sacrificed as did many others with our time and efforts.
I told you then and I tell you now, you are one heck of a Fullertonian, Californian and American. Hope all is going well in your world.
Last night I felt cheated and basically Bamboozled. When the going got tough, many shirked the challenge. Not only did Greg Sebourne slither away like a snake, but many who I was proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with did the same. To say I feel sold out is an understatement but that is democracy. Sometimes you like the outcome, sometimes you don’t.
But always keep up the good fight like i know you will.
Best always my friend.
I feel the same sense of betrayal and abandonment that we felt after Ron Thomas decided the protests in front of the FPD had run their course, after I watched last night’s city council meeting.
I’ve put in a lot of time and effort to change what’s wrong in Fullerton to quit now.
Semper Fi
To bad Tony. Ronnie doesn’t need you anymore. He is on his was to settle and get his money and run.
is this good therapy for you cicinelli?
Well said FL. I see we are still on the same page.
“However, because the OCSD wouldn’t be able to take over police services until 2015, I’m sure that the bid would be pointless as most bids have a 90 to 180 day window to accept the bid proposal”
I just explained about why a big from OCSD would not be “pointless”, Fullerton Lover.
Please address my counterpoint. Don’t sidestep it.
I gotta say JustUs, I don’t always like listening to some of your banter, however I do admire your pluck and tenacity.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that a formal proposal from the OCSD would be a great bargaining chip come negotiation time with the FPOA, however I am not naive enough to believe that Supervisor Shawn Nelson and Sheriff Sandra Hutchens haven’t already tossed around a few SWAG’s regarding the cost of the OCSD taking over police services that would suggest that the cost of the savings to Fullerton residents would be at least 10 Million dollars per year, with more police services offered, than are currently available to the FPD.
Peace Out.
“Even Ron Thomas stated the problem was a few bad cops”
The problem is not ‘a few bad cops’. The problem is systemic. The FFFF blogs have shown that. The fact that the FPD rank ‘n file have not publicly condemned all the heinous violations committed by their brother cops shows that the disease runs deep. It is not ‘a few’. It is ‘the many’. Please, come out of your denial.
“Being so quick to dump the PD, and thus city control of it’s own policing, is a significant abdication of duty”
FPD has shown that they are not amenable to change. It has not admitted it’s wrongs and asked for your forgiveness. The same arrogant attitude exists under the veneer of fake reforms.
The FFFF blogs have made that clear for the last year.
Please, no more denial. Let’s have the courage to face the truth.
Systemic, correct. They can’t break rank on their corrupt officers because they would lose credibility as a team. They CAN rework their psych evaluation to screen applicants for character issues. They just need to upgrade. THEN follow the dept with oversight. It’s a three year change process, IF they start now. They can evaluate corruption out of the system if they are willing to disconnect the pay check from their less competent staff. Fullerton ALSO needs a regional militia, but that’s another issue entirely.
I don’t see what you see. I see some publicized issues of wrongdoing. Normal in this world. One incident of force with death. Being dealt with now. I see a Chief firing people, changing policies, listening to people, increasing discipline. Where so you see this complete disregard and no care for the community and no concern for the past and change? I see it everywhere if you look at truths and not just gossip or opinions on this blog.
“I don’t see what you see”
Then you got your eyes closed.
I see lots and lots of backsliding here. And I held out so much hope for you. Sad.
Whatver happens, I wish you well.
Grrrr. As much as it pains me to say so, everything you have said on this issue above is right.
You love my logic and rational thinking when it coincides with your beliefs, Glazed Blade.
You hate it when it dismantles your beliefs.
You don’t handle differences well, do ya?
Not surprising.
You don’t understand. When you’re right, you’re right. When you’re wrong, you’re wrong. I’m just a big enough man to understand that even someone who is totally wrong on some issues can be right on others. You’re not.
There is something wrong with you, plain glazed. You don’t follow the topic. Your narratives are emotionally charged AND you are a fucking African American pervert racist.
Oh, I thought the nutjob was banned? Guess he just changed his name and IP.
I am looking forward to dining on your flesh later.
BRICON, why don’t you go get your Sam Browne and get your ass over to roll-call. The Watch Commander is pissed!
“I’m just a big enough man to understand that even someone who is totally wrong on some issues can be right on others”
You could not successfully attack my opinion on illegal immigration…..so you attacked me.
I am simply an American patriot. I vehemently oppose illegal foreigners coming into my country and scarfing up our resources without even a desire to acclimate. I believe in rule of law that must be obeyed across the board and not enforced selectively. I believe in a sovereign nation.
Your opinion was totally opposite.
My opinion is solid. Yours is not. There’s the difference.
Now go ahead and personally attack me. You seem to specialize in that sort of thing.
BS. Your opinions were based on faulty data and bias. You established how much illegal immigration cost per year and based on the figures you cited I proved that was something like .07% of the federal budget. You think that is an urgent priority but the math shows that it is not.
California alone spends over $20B a year on illegal immigrants for education, health care, incarcerations and welfare.
If we stopped funding illegal foreigners we could balance our budget overnight. California would be in the black.
So stop discounting the problem.
I support a sovereign nation. You do not.
That’s the fundamental difference of our debate.
Now go away.
I’m finished with you.
I am not going anywhere. Feel free to ignore me if you don’t like what I have to say. Your claims about balancing the budget if we didn’t have illegal immigration are utterly laughable and unsupported by any evidence. This country was a sovereign nation long before it had tough border control and racialized quotas, and if you had the slightest knowledge of American history you would know that. Enjoy being a biased ignoramous.
Also, when someone says you are right, instead of saying thank you, you gloat. That’s just bad manners and lack of civility. Momma should have raised you better. Oh well.
“Also, when someone says you are right, instead of saying thank you, you gloat”
I owe you nothing. Not even my acknowledgment.
And I will prove that by ignoring all your caustic comments in the future. You are an energy drainer and unable to understand logical, rational thought. Not worth my time.
You are on permanent ignore effective immediately. 😀
Open Immigration Will Greatly Slow America’s Rush Toward An Entitlement State
Immigrant rights march for amnesty in downtown…
By Andrew Bernstein
Open immigration is both morally right and economically beneficial.
Morally, it is the inalienable right of an honest individual to reside in any country he chooses. He is an upstanding person; he does good, not ill. His right to choose a country of residence must be upheld.
Related, the government of a free country must, as a strictly logical point, in order to be the government of a free country, protect the right of honest persons to choose their country of residence. Just as law-abiding citizens are free to emigrate from a free nation, so they must be free to immigrate to it.
Moral virtue has practical gains.
Both historically and currently, immigrants have immensely enriched America.
Historically, remember, Andrew Carnegie was a Scottish immigrant; John Roebling, a German one; Nikola Tesla, a Serb who emigrated from Croatia; Albert Einstein was a German immigrant who became a U.S. citizen in 1940; the great economist, Ludwig von Mises, was an Austrian immigrant; and Ayn Rand, author of Atlas Shrugged, a Russian one. The list could be indefinitely extended.
In our day, Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google, emigrated to the U.S. from the Soviet Union. Jerry Yang, co-founder of Yahoo, emigrated to America from Taiwan. Vinod Khosla, one of the founders of Sun Microsystems, is an Indian immigrant; Andreas Bechtolsheim, another of Sun’s founders, a German one. This list, too, could be greatly extended.
In the terms of economics, such brilliant minds represent immense human capital, and create vast sums of intellectual and material wealth.
Related, immigrants, whether high-or-low-skilled, tend to have a strong work ethic. In 2005, for example, immigrants composed but twelve percent of the U.S. population—but fifteen percent of the work force. Linda Chavez, publishing in 1993, wrote that Haitians, Jamaicans, Salvadorans, Guatemalans, Peruvians, and Filipinos had “labor force participation rates at least ten points higher than those of the native born.” Wall Street Journal editor, Jason Riley, points out: “We know from labor force participation rates that low-skilled immigrants are society’s hardest workers.”
Should America become a country denying admission to humanity’s hardest workers? Or—recognizing that men working productively, including at menial tasks, thereby create goods or services, i.e., wealth—should it open its magnanimous arms and clasp such workers to its bosom?
Such immigrant willingness to work at jobs often scorned by the native born is a universal win. The immigrants get to live and work in America, with greater freedom and higher living standards than in the nation they abandoned—and their children and grandchildren tend to outstrip them both educationally and economically. American employers get a supply of cheap labor, willing to perform any task, no matter how menial. American consumers enjoy the lower prices resulting from a cheap labor supply. Low-skilled native born workers, enjoying immense advantages in linguistic fluency and cultural knowledge, should be incentivized to upgrade their skills.
In addition to the economic gain, there is an important security benefit to an open immigration policy. Since it is a great boon to an immigrant to be in the country legally rather than illegally, the overwhelming majority, given the choice, will walk in through the front door, thereby initiating the process of becoming a U.S. citizen. The flood of migrant workers seeking to illegally sneak across the Mexican border will reduce to a trickle. The money and manpower currently deployed to keep Mexican workers out of the country can then be used to keep Middle Eastern Islamic terrorists out of the country.
Regarding both American prosperity and security, respecting the rights of honest immigrants to become U.S. citizens lead to significant practical benefits.
Some argue that because of America’s current welfare state, the country cannot afford an open immigration policy. This is false for two reasons. One is that a welfare state is pernicious to both those funding it and those parasitical off of it; the former, because they’re robbed—the latter because its perverse financial incentives support men’s most indolent premises, and seduce onto the dole many who could otherwise gain minimum wage employment. From purely humanitarian considerations, the welfare state must be irrevocably dismantled, regardless of America’s immigration policy.
Second, most persons who ship out of the only society they’ve known are rationally ambitious individuals. The U.S. is the favored destination of such rationally ambitious persons because they recognize that America is the greatest country on earth—and is so, not because it has welfare programs, but because its mixed economy contains more elements of capitalism and fewer of statism than any other nation.
Most immigrants recognize that America is the land of opportunity. If we let enough in, perhaps their number will offset the growing number of the native born who simper that America is the land of entitlement.
Andrew Bernstein is the author of The Capitalist Manifesto, Capitalism Unbound, and, most recently, Capitalist Solutions. His website is: http://www.andrewbernstein.net
JustUs proven totally wrong again – priceless.
😀
Way to stay on topic. I thought we were here to talk about outsourcing the FPD.
I don’t care if it’s FPD or OCSD. Just as when I turn on the light switch, I don’t care where the power comes from, I just want the lights to turn on. You and I don’t need to power generation stations at home, we just need the electricity to come on when we flip the switch.
If I ever need to call 911, I don’t care if the badge says FPD or OCSD. You won’t either if you there’s an intruder in your house/etc. If OCSD can do it for 10 Million less than FPD, then by all means, that’s a business decision that’s simple to make.
The FPD needs to justify why we are paying X per resident more than other cities. We operate on a society of “perceived value”. To me the perceived value is not there for FPD at the current prices.
I want to see the 3-5-10 year expected operating costs for FPD. I want to see the PAST 3-5-10 years operating costs as well.
No simple answer on this, but if you leave emotion out and use fiscal responsibility, this does become easier to deal with.
Recalls- They always start out with so much hope and potential for change don’t they? Remember that loser Gray Davis- Electing Arnold was going to put an end to “business as usual” politics. What a joke that turned out to be. And now we have the same dynamic with the 2 losers who caved in to the “supporters” who were merely a crowd stacked by FPOA. Recall elections- what a bunch of BS.
William, if a political system is systemically corrupted recalls don’t make a bit of difference.
If politicians can tell you one thing prior to an election and do the exact opposite post-election without conseequences the people really have no chance.
If a politician must lie to get into office that should be the equivalent of perjury in a court of law since they basically stole your vote and possibly your money if you contributed to get him or her elected. It was an act of fraud. If you pulled the same stunt as a business man (misrepresented a product or service to a customer) you’d be in big trouble.
Our political system is broken, William. It wasn’t designed that way. But it has evolved that way by design. Money buys politicians and legislative votes. The Founding Fathers abhored that notion. And it is destroying the nation.
To Barry Coffman: Great Job! A little support here and there goes a long way. A sea of blue goes a long way. Who cares if Fullerton spends an extra $10 million a year on police than it would if it were like most other cities. Who wants any studies of cost. We can always bring back the WATER TAX! Yup, ya got Seaborn’s vote changed and Silva is running for another office and needs political contributions!
Who lost? The taxpayers, the ratepayers, the voters! No big deal! Bring out the donuts and celebrate!
Tuco. Fullerton is not high paid compared to other cities. Get a clue. Compare PDs in California that have Pers. you will see they are below the median in pay and compensation.
FPD is much more expensive to operate than OCSD would be. We already know that. Cops in general are way overpaid. All it takes is a GED to be a cop and most get paid (salary, OT, benefits) more than family physicians. It’s totally nuts. Cops are worth less than half of their current compensations.
It’s takes much more than a GED. That’s why most GEDs fail out early in academies. That job those cops do most of us couldn’t do even if we were forced to do it.
Bullcrap. A GED was running the OCSD for awhile after Carona resigned.
Cops are grossly overpaid. Grossly. Their pay and benefits (compension) should get cut by 60%.
The reason you have 3000 applicants for every job is because the standards are so low and the pay is so high.
You would never find 3000 applicants for one job in the private sector where the qualifications and pay are fairly balanced.
We disagree. Most people wouldn’t want to be a cop even for the pay. The pay has been the same for over 10 years. Nothin has changed. Even the ones that want to get DQ’d dusting the app process or background. You are far in the minority if you think cops are overpaid. $60-80k base salary is not overpaid for a job most people couldn’t or don’t want to do. I know I wouldn’t and couldn’t do it.
Silliness. Kelly Meija (iPad thief) was 26 years old and being paid $86K base. Police officer is not even close to being the most dangerous job as has been discussed here over and over again. Police officers are grossly overpaid compared to other public employees and compared to their level of education, training, skill, etc.
He has no idea of what he speaks, Jt.
I get tired of schooling these people.
Thanks for stepping in.
An over paid theif. Anybody who honestly believes that cops, teachers, politicians, etc. aren’t overpaid is an idiot. I’ve always worked on straight commission, no unearned pension, no unearned benefits, but instead earning exactly what I’m worth. Working on commission most earn little, some a lot, but all what they’re worth, unlike public employees with their pimps, sorry I mean unions.
What ride around in a patrol car and hand out the occaional ticket? Or are you one of those that believes it’s like Cops or the tv/movies. I had a good friend that was a cop in the LA area and he quit and joined the FD because being a cop was so boring. The truth is almost anyone can do it, and would if the pay was advertised.
I didn’t go because this is not the primary issue right now and I knew the whole place was going to be filled with cops.
We can’t get rid of the FPD right now or in the near future. Let’s focus on getting some independent civilian oversight and get some bad cops off the streets.
An independent civilian oversight committee of the FPD would be an extremely taxing position for absolutely no pay.
Why I would anyone endanger themselves or their family by working to correct a department that doesn’t want any civilian oversight, for absolutely no compensation or reward?
I have no problem giving folks $10k a year to do this job.
I spent a few years in Oxford, England back in the 80’s, and was always impressed by the professionalism of the police officers, or “bobbies”, who are accountable to this Independent Police Complaint Commission, who as commissioners are paid a respectable full-time wage to investigate complaints against the police.
Note that one of the requirements is for the people who are on the commission is to have never served in law enforcement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Police_Complaints_Commission
True. Oversight is a great idea but usually dies a slow painful death for cities like Fullerton because it is way too much work for free. Good oversight committees are well compensated.
Hey Glazed. LDX was banned for being a racist nutjob and JustUs is only allowed to continue posting because he hides his disdain for minorities a little better. They are not worth wasting your breathe over. Uneducated bigots with big egos will never concede a point, respect those they disagree with, or do anything other than preach about how they know everything. If they would go to therapy for their issues of being bullied as kids, they could probably stop being so hateful and cocky. But you can’t help those who do not want to help themselves.
More mean spirted inaccurate vitriol from Glazed’s water bucket boy!!! 😀
You have been placed behind the permanent ignore chickenwire with Glazed!
Now go cackle to one another some more. We laught at you!!!
See ya!!! 😀
Fullerton is moving forward I see.
I find Mr. Diamond to be very funny. Every so-called serious comment he makes is laughable.
Is it true that the reason he comes to Fullerton Council meetings is because he was kicked out of his home city? Pathetic little man.
Oh, you certainly got me there with that gibe. But tell me, how can one be “kicked out of his home city” in a way that leaves one having to attend Fullerton Council meetings? (Is this what you have in mind for Sebourn in reverse?)
Keep honing that wit! (You might also consider hiring a thousand monkeys at typewriters to write your stuff, as a reserve plan.)
Greg you are such a good read! Tony is lucky to have you guest on his blog. Too bad that it is wasted on these mush brains.
Big thanks to Travis and Bruce for having the stones to stand up to the union overlords. Bummer that the other 3 couldn’t step up when we needed them.
I don’t necessarily feel that the FPD should be disbanded, but there’s no harm in looking at the price tag for an alternative. Simply having a firm offer in hand from the OCSD could have been a valuable card when it comes time to renegotiate the city’s contract with the FPD.
Gonzo would you ask for a price on a car now that you were thinking about buying in 2015?
I have no idea how long it takes the OCSD to prepare their estimates or when the renegotiation process begins with the FPD.
If I were looking to buy a new car though, I’d definitely look at some comparable models. You’re in a much better bargaining position when you sit down at the negotiating table if you have an alternative available.
Is it your position that the council should wait a year or two before soliciting bids from the OCSD? Is your objection over the timing or over the fact that we’re looking at alternatives?
If my research is correct, their contract is through 2014 with an option for 2015. They will take that option. So in essence, FPD is on place as is through 2015.
What good is a bid now if the option isn’t even possible until 2016? Wouldn’t it make more sense to do it in 2015 when negotiations start with FPD?
I would be surprised if OCSD would even do an estimate with a city knowing they are doing it just for fun. Waste of time and resources.
Not my time or my resources, so I’m for it. By my understanding the estimate would be provided by the OCSD at no cost to Fullerton tax payers.
I understand that the current contract will likely extend through 2015, but when does the city start the process of renegotiating a possible extension? Isn’t that something that would probably be done at least a couple years in advance? I really don’t know how the process works.
I still think the council would be negligent not to explore their options if an exploration could be achieved at no cost to us, even if they ultimately opt to stick with the FPD.
Good story, but wrong. The FPOA would be on the spot to start making concessions now, maybe even renegotiating a new contract. They aren’t very smart but I’m sure even the idiot Coffman could figure that out.
It wasn’t about disbanding the FPD. For the union it was all about maintaining the status quo for another three years.
I believe you are correct. The cops tried to gin up hysteria to keep what they’ve got. That’s not much of a victory.
I’m going to write a post along these lines.
Does anybody here have any idea of when the process of renegotiating a possible extension with the FPD would even start? I guess that’s the big question behind this thread.
From my experience of negotiations, the earlier the better and that goes for both negotiating parties.
About 8 months before the contract expiration date.
SADLY, EVERYONE ON THE CITY COUNCIL ARE OWNED BY THE CORRUPT COPS. UNFORTUNATELY
THE FPD IS HERE FOREVER. THIS WILL BE HELL WHEN RAMOS IS BACK ON THE BEAT. I’M TAKING MY FAMILY AND LEAVING TOWN.
Bye!!
And Ron Thomas carries Hughes balls in his back pocket.
THE COPS ARE TO POWERFUL THEY OWN FULLERTON.
OBVIOUSLY NOTHINGS CHANGED. THE FPD ARE BLEEDING THIS CITY TO DEATH. ANYONE CAN BE BOUGHT.
Just because FPD won a battle does not mean the war is over. The entire force is under extreme scrutiny and any mistreatment of citizens will be magnified significantly. And while it may make financial sense to replace the entire force, is does little to guarantee officer misconduct will decrease. I think more emphasis should be placed on getting rid of the officers who are guilty of crimes and changing the corrupt culture within the force.
I hate it when people confuse patriotism with xenophobia and racism. Blind patriotism is what leads to hate crimes and invasion of countries under false pretense. Guess some people forgot about what happened when GW Bush started stripping our liberties away in the name of “patriotism.”.
Welcome back LDX. For a second I thought you may have found a job or a therapist, but now I see you just got banned for being an ignorant bigot who changed his name and will soon be banned again.
I believe that Councilman Whitaker correctly explained why we need to get an estimate from the OCSD now.
We need to know sooner rather than later what exactly is our precarious fiscal situation.
This estimate was free to the taxpayers of Fullerton. Where was the downside? There was none.
All I can say is that Barry Coffman and his union buddies are laughing it up back at the station. It only took about $2,500 of free tee shirts and a bunch of police friends and relatives, most of whom probably do not live or work in Fullerton to get the necessary 3-2 Vote!
And Sharon is obviously looking to get campaign money from these same or similar unions!
Hopefully, help is on the way with this year’s November election.
Be strong, be brave, be smart Fullerton.
“I believe that Councilman Whitaker correctly explained why we need to get an estimate from the OCSD now”
Councilman Whitaker gave only one half of the reason for the bid from OCSD.
Aside from the financial case, a bid from OCSD would have been a hammer over FPD’s head and forced them to clean up their act or else. Now there is nothing to motivate FPD to change their ways. Nothing. It’s business as usual. And Sebourn the traitor was the deciding vote. He stabbed Kelly’s people right in the back. Especially after he campaigned on the platform of getting tough on FPD. He did a complete 180. Are you folks going to hold him accountable or are you going to roll over? That’s what I want to know. If you roll over you deserve whatever you get.
Well said.
I agree with many things you write but am curious as to what you consider “Rolling Over” as opposed to holding Sebourn “accountable”. What exactly would you like done and are you willing to join the charge and engage those who would stand in the way?
I mean this with all due respect and sincerity.
Hi TheMoron, I never run from questions and I am happy to answer yours.
Rolling over in this case means allowing Sebourn to get away with what he did without any consequences. Politicians who promise one thing during campaign season and do the opposite when elected require punishment. You folks should get in his face during the Council meeting and shame him for betraying you. And you should immediately start organizing an effort to oust him in November. That is what I meant by ‘accountability’. If politicians think they can pull the ‘bait and switch’ on their constituents without consequences our political system is worthless. You need to fight back, TheMoron!
I am not a resident of Fullerton. If I was I would jump in head first. Trust me. I am only a spectator looking in. And I tell you what I see. I have no dogs in the race. And I make excuses for no one.
Sebourn is not up for re-election in November. Kiger and Whitaker are. You’re stuck with him at least 6 months to 2years.
Really? After all post all day saying he will be out soon and he’s not even up in November? Crazy.
No wonder he was so bold.
Typical politician. He hopes to go back on his word and counts on your short memory.
It was probably a group decision. He took the fall for the group since his reelection is far in the future.
Politics is dirty and slimey.
You can trust any of them. Even the ones who you think are trustworthy. They would stab you in the back just as quick as look at you.
incorrect… the overwhelming majority present were long time, home owning residents of fullerton. I am sad that most did not participate during the council meetings after the death of KT to demand justice, but the fact is the people represented at last night’s meeting were residents/business owners that have a vested interest in the future of their city and how it is to be policed…. unlike most of the bloggers here.
“the overwhelming majority present were long time, home owning residents of fullerton” Your statement is incorrect. A overwhelming majority would have been 80,000 residents, which was not there. Do not speak for all the residents. I still do not trust the FPD, and I am a over 30 year home owner resident of Fullerton. Please only blog for yourself.
I just hope that Ron Thomas does Kelly proud and fights these scoundrel renegades all the way to trial and exposes the truth. IMO a pre-trial settlement would be a second beatdown on poor Kelly. Do him proud, Ron. The poor kid deserves it.
JustUs you are absolutely correct. It is called negotiating. Apparently 3/5ths of the council do not understand this or just do not care.
Oh we FPOA dues payers were pretty damn scared last night. We marshaled all of our forces and energy to keep the council from simply gathering data. Yes, we were scared shitless by the Bushala Three. Well, now I guess it’s only Two and we’re not quite so scared anymore. At least until an unarmed, skilly homeless guy shows up. But six of us will take care of him. We do best in large groups.
Yes, the FPD is very good at farting in faces, when your sick and need help. As it was stated last night “crime is down” that’s because calling the FPD will not help. So nobody calls, lower crime rate. Right now I would not call the FPD for help.
That farting story is the best ever. Classic.
Call Anaheim.
If Greg wasn’t so busy breaking windows with the OCCUPY crowd in Anaheim (whole new turf aong Lincoln tonight counsler), maybe he would pay attention to the trouble his OWN city is facing.
Then again, he has no vested interest in ANY COMMUNITY. Just in destroying them.
If Brea were trying to do the Wisconsin & Costa Mesa thing, I would. But even though it’s run by Republicans, it seems like a placid and pretty well-run city. Fullerton, by contrast, is so interesting.
Wait, I had skimmed over that “breaking windows with the OCCUPY crowd” part.
Is it SO MUCH TO ASK that AT LEAST SOMETIMES when someone libels me here they do so under their own name?
Grow up, donkey. Quit crying. You’ve never heard of satirical exaggeration? If you were in any way important you’d actually be getting more of it.
OK, which of these are “satirical exaggeration”?
(1) that I’ve broken windows
(2) that the local Occupy crowd has broken windows
(3) that property destruction was taking place last night in Anaheim
These aren’t exaggerations, they’re just flat out lies (and yet I’ll bet that some people here would believe them. As for their being “satirical,” please explain how that would be.
Being lectured about growing up and not crying by someone with the bravery to post only under “Down on the Farm,” though — THAT could belong in someone’s satirical piece.
YOUR FAT ASS IS SATIRICAL, does your mommy still dress you? U looked like a fat slob at the counsel meeting tuesday night!!! TAKE YOUR FAT ASS TO 3 DAY SUIT BROKER.
Wow — had I known that you were a campaign consultant I’d have had more contempt for you from the very beginning.
OK, so you’ve got a thing about weight and a thing about child molesters with goatees. Tell us what they did to you, poor boy.
That child molestor comment would’ve bugged me more!
There’s such a thing as “beneath contempt.”
For more examples of “beneath contempt,” look a couple of top-level comments below this one.
🙂
i BET HE DRIVES A WHITE VAN
How much do you want to bet?
Child molesters try to hide their identity. Which one of us does that description fit, boo-boo?
I run this city.
………… Hmmmmmmm
Are any of these donors wiling to donate to you a large intestine (colon) just in the case yours will bust from fatsoism and campaigning hernia?
Folks, after the Yorba Linda earthquake last night I went sleep and wake up having weird dream.
I saw Golem to win his campaign by 99% and after his victory speech, held in the Fullerton, he was running through the downtown leading hundreds of the exuberant OCCUPIERS holding big club screaming “kristallnacht” while smashing windows of the 1% Goldman Sachs Bank USA (“GS Bank”) vandalizing their windows while crowd was screening heil Golem, heil 99%.
greg shave your child molester beard, you re to old and fat to be sporting a goatee
See, now THAT is FFFF at its finest. I stand “refuted.”
you stand arched, cus you so fat. HEY ROB REINHER WANTS HIS LOOK BACK!!!!
Are you a smart person pretending to be stupid — or a stupid person pretending to be even stupider?
Disillusioned Ex-Hippy:
“Perhaps the most interesting this is that Sebourn’s vote puts the lie to the anti-recall goons who insist that the recall replacement candidates are lock-step puppets for anybody.”
1. You are laughably naive.
2. You’re still hurting from the bout of unfulfilled coitus from
the council meeting.
3. FFFF is amateur hour. Come to Chicago and see how it’s
really done.
JustUs is absolutely right. If you’re not worried about losing your job, you can pretty much do whatever the fuck you want to do-with impunity.
Back to your statement about Sebourn’s vote, do you think he might of cut a deal with FPOA before the meeting. LOL! That’s the likely scenario.
I really think that FFFF is doing the right thing. I just feel a little let down over the result from the Council meeting. I’ll get over it. Gotta keep up the fight.
“FFFF is amateur hour. come to Chicago and see how it’s really done” …..I been to Chicago once, took in a Cubs game…..
You’re still alive, that’s good! Just be careful if you go see the Sox, it can get a little rough!
No worries, I got a friend that lives on the south side of Chicago he is the baddest man in the whole damn town and his name is Leroy Brown….LOL
All kidding aside, we in Chicago are very interested n the outcome of all this.
As should everyone, everywhere who believes in justice, and criminal political reform
Its not over my friends. We have the November elections to right what happened last night. Seaborn caved. He to can be replaced. The oc sd will be happy to give us the bid after the November elections. I know the voters will send a message. The cops don’t live here in Fullerton and they cant vote in November elections. We must not let them bully us. We know what needs to be done to f Pd. Lets get to work.
Just remember they are or will become politicians. All politicians are the same. The boss might have got them in but they will be their own soon. Politicians will never make everyone happy, especially the left and liberals.
The immediate focus should be on Whittaker and Kiger since they are the ones who will be standing for re-election in four months.
I’ll leave the second guessing of Sebourn’s vote to others but IF you believe it was because he was concerned about a backlash, proving him wrong in November. Walk precincts, argue with your friends (respectfully!) and show up at council meetings — not to harrangue Sebourn but to show there is more support for the RFP than it appeared on Tuesday.
Look, I’m admittedly the last person to lecture anybody about how to win an election but I do know this: a circular firing squad won’t help anyone interested in reform at the FPOA. And regardless of what anyone here believes about the merits of Sebourn’s vote I do believe that is his ultimate goal.
I agree the focus should be on Whitaker and Kiger since they showed the voting citizens of Fullerton that they don’t care what you think. Whitaker and Kiger will do opposite of what the citizens wanted and will justify their position as believing they are smarter and know more about this thean anyone in Fullerton. They should have listened and voted the way the citizens asked them to vote. Instead they voted out spite.
Paden what makes you think there is more support for the RFP?
Pay close attention voters to what these guys say and do.
I don’t think anyone should second guess Sebourn. It was obvious what the citizens wanted and he voted that way. Kiger and Whitaker voted completely opposite. I for one will be writing to Sebourn, Chaffee and SQS thanking them for their vote but especially Sebourn. Are you the campaign manager for Whitaker and Kiger? Don’t you think there are other candidates that may help this city continue to move forward instead of trying to destroy it in (my opinion)?
You think the FPD six are bad. They are nothing comparing to what is left at FPD. Dig deeper and you will find out.
would we find more people like you?
Worst….
This is actually interesting info from JD. Can you tell us names? More information please.
Even thought the cost analysis didn’t get voted in it was a nice assertive move by the leaders on our council to put some sort of face on the runaway spending crisis we face. It was nice to smoke out all the moles to see up close the officers who patrol our streets at night. Homeless man reported seeing the officer from the elevator beating incident a few years ago stopping by to chat. what will it take to clean up our department. desperated means need despartate measures. I applaud any approach to bring our department back to citizen accountability.
Because he knows now his son was not brutally murdered. He is back tracking and just wants his money and run.
John doe is a perpetual antaganist. It makes me wonder if there isn’t some desperate intrest he is trying to protect by fighting everyone here.
RON TOM-ASS DID BLOW ME AWAY WITH THAT SUPPORTING THE FPD BULLSHIT,WTF IS UP WITH THAT?
Don’t you know, he and Hughes are lunch buddies. Like that use of Ron Tom-ass Good one.
What kind of faulty logic compares the death of soldiers, who are paid to be deployed and possibly see combat, with a man who was murdered for being homeless and mentally ill? If you want to show regard for the service members who die in combat that’s fine, but stop making inane comparisons in effort to denigrate the life of Kelly Thomas. Go show your support by protesting the Westboro Church when they disrespect funeral services for fallen troops or enlist yourself.
John Doe with his brilliant insight regarding the death of Kelly Thomas: “He wasn’t brutally murdered, he was brutally beaten, suffocated, and electrocuted and died a few days later. There’s a big difference” Thanks for bringing your usual b.s. to the table with no facts to support anything you say.
Just like you, everything you say is unbackable.keep talking.
@Brandon Facts are coming that are gonna blow T-Racks case to bits, itty, bitty, teeny weeny. It’s all in the timing.
Yes the facts are coming, the facts are coning.
LMAO @ 60-80K not being overpaid for a job requiring no formal education. Teachers start at half that at put in more hours. I just completed an 80 unit Master’s program in School Psychology and will start at a comparable base salary if I am lucky. They should be paid $30K to start, maybe $40K if they work in a dangerous city. As far as not anyone being able to do it; Cicinelli had a missing eye, Ramos, Wolfe, Goodrich, and many other cops we’ve seen on here are borderline obese, who exactly are the people who can’t be cops?
Borderline obese? Brother they crossed that frontier 20 years ago.
Did you see the pictures of Coffman and Kirk? Fat asses. Those slobs couldn’t catch a rolling donut.
I think you underestimate their ability to catch donuts.
EXACTLY, THE PEOPLE IN FULLERTON ARE TO STUPID AND LAZY TO SAVE THEIR CITY.
THE CORRUPT COPS OWN THIS CITY COUNCIL. NOTHING WILL CHANGE.
You saw that in the June election.
Ron Thomas “thinks” he will become more electable to the residences of Fullerton if he moves his position more to the center and away from the left. He is looking to be viewed as a leader to attract the old time crooks here in town. He thinks he has leadership of the kt’s army and can offer to aplease the “old guard” if he is viewed as united and can keep the “Kt army followers” from making anymore changes to the business as usual here in Fullerton. Haaah I don’t know how he can sleep at night! He needs money and sees dollar signs if he settles his lawsuit against fullerton. The dollars $signs are burning a hole in his pockets and he thinks he has a new career as a politico all lined up. Keep your eyes wide open in November we can make changes.
I will not try to guess why Sebourn sided with Quirk-Silva and Chaffee. I do know he will have to support that vote for a long time.
I do know that the majority vote sent the wrong message to the FPOA. That message is simply that the police can expect the status quo for the next 2 and one half years left on their current contract.
I believe most Fullertonians will live to regret that the council sent that message to the police union.
Look who just woke up from a very deep 2 year slumber. None other than Roland Chi. He just pulled papers today.
I hope you had a very nice sleep Roland but tell your dad not to steal campaign signs again. You know we do have a new police chief and he might even prosecute your dad this time around.
Wow looks like major vote splits coming up. Strategy. Tony better pull out $500k minimum for this battle.