Eighty-Four Underpaid Teachers Who Make Over $90k
Yesterday one of our blog readers expressed disbelief that any Fullerton teacher made over 80 grand a year. That’s a lot of money for a part time job, and our poor school teachers are supposed to be underpaid, right?
Well, take a look at this list of 84 FSD teachers who made over $90,000 in the 2009-2010 school year.
[iframe_loader width=”100%” height=”600″ frameborder = ‘0’ marginheight=’0′ marginwidth=’0′ click_words=” click_url=” scrolling=’auto’ src=’https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AiyL667gfsw9dFJtY0c4MFNOZkVSSHRKaHQzdlpKT3c&output=html&widget=true’]
But the real kicker is that these folks only had to work for 182 days a year to earn these salaries, while the rest of us slog it out for about 240 days.
So it seems that plenty of Fullerton teachers are doing just fine after all. Maybe it’s time for the school board to stop accepting furlough days as the solution to our budget problems. It’s supposed to be about the children, right?
Haha. Janny Meyer – $95,221.23
Add in the pension pay for life( 60% of final year pay after 30 years) and health benefits for life and we’re talking more like $160,000+ per year of TOTAL compensation, not just regular salary pay. All for 182 days per year, minus 10 paid sick days(172 days per year… about $900+ per day).
Check out how they’re going broke too. If teachers were really paying enough into their pensions, there would be no issue of going broke.
http://www.scpr.org/news/2010/04/05/study-california-pensions-underfunded-500-billion/
Yes! “But the real kicker is that these folks only had to work for 182 days a year to earn these salaries, while the rest of us slog it out for about 240 days.” is never emphasized PLUS THEIR SIX HOUR DAY.
What? Teaching is a full time job. Except for one week in November, two weeks in December, a week for Spring Break, two months in the Summer and every day after 3:15.
Deforest – If you think teachers work an eight hour day, you are clueless as to the duties of a teacher. The six hours is spent in the classroom teaching. When do they grade papers, plan and prepare lessons, have parent conferences, deal with behavior issues… Get a clue!
Do you have a degree, Travis? Did you make a poor career choice? If you think that teachers make so much money then why aren’t you one? That’s right….you have to complain and blog instead. Get off your butt and get a career, Travis.
You got me. I can’t even fathom making that much money.
was it really important or necessary for you to post all of these names on here travis? what motivation could you have but to harm? i hope your employer has mental health insurance for you. i think you may need it.
What “harm” could possibly come from the public knowing how much their own teachers make?
Yeah, well knowledge is harmful. Is that the official motto of FSD?
Thanks for the info Travis. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
Um, Anonymous, is this public information? If it is, why shouldn’t the public see it? Have something you want to hide?
Of course not. It’s beyond minimum wage.
I can’t either, but it helps that I still live at home
I thought you lived in Long Beach Chris?
Thanks, Travis, but unfortunately, people like Who Cares from the prior blog don’t really want the facts.
Oh facts are just fine. It’s dumb asses like you who assume that don’t like.
182 Days????
So I’m assuming then that these figures DON’T include their summer school pay? Or should we add another 30 days to a lot of these teachers?
Do these figures include when they go in on Saturdays for tutorials/tutoring sessions to prepare them for the CAHSEE and STAR?
Does the 182 days figure in the unpaid days they work to get their room ready in the summer?
Does it figure in extra professional development most teachers do during the summer?
Does it figure in the hours they work on the weekends grading papers and calculating grades?
I don’t know anything about summer school. The data source said all of these were 10 month per-year employees (which actually means 9 once you factor in all of the breaks.)
That’s quite a list you’ve got there. Maybe the few teachers who actually do all of those things should be paid more than the ones who don’t.
Don’t you know A.G. that teachers only work 182 days for six hours a day? They have it sooooooo easy! They NEVER plan, or visit homes, or grade papers, or sponsor clubs, or pay for their own conferences on their own time. Geez! Where have you been? LOL!!!!
I’ll give you:
2 days for setting up the room( set-up my sister’s room in 1 day)
No days for tutoring(should know it already)
No days for pro development(leads to higher pay)
Summer school pay? Please reference how many days total
Many teachers have scantron/grade during class/students grade
Teachers get modified days or sometimes, a free period, so minus that
What about total compensation? That adds 60-70k per year to their pay that isn’t included in the above figures.
Actually, they don’t get paid for the summer months so during the course of the year they need to sock away money during the school year to cover their nuts in July and August. To say nothing of the all the money they have to come out of pocket for to buy basic supplies for their classrooms. Sure, that’s deductible, but it’s a pittance. Wow, a total of 84 teachers out of how many hundreds in FSD? Sounds like you’re trying to make another mountain out of a mole hill. Must be a slow news day.
One overpaid swine defending a bunch of others.
90K a year will buy a whole bunch of construction paper.
And we’ve already seen this Janny creature is a semi-literate nincompoop.
Dear, “You’re a Sour Grape”
Please refrain from using a degree to determine one’s ability to teach or not.
BTSA has proven to be a colossal joke….rewarding bad “mentor” teachers and wasting taxpayer money while driving good young teachers out the door.
CTA has proven to be the most self serving entity in history under the guise, “It’s for the Children.” Please note that it is the CTA and the NEA which determine the qualifications for a teacher to perform at a specific level.
I have met many “degreed” individuals whom their “Higher Learning Institutions” shudder from the knowledge that they conferred upon them an accomplishment letter in the form of a “higher learning certificate.”
Some of the finest educators I have met do not hold a degree.
Now onto the reason this was posted in the first place. Mr./Mrs. “You’re a Sour Grape” please note that Travis is tired of working 240 days per year to pay for what the CTA and the NEA calls “qualified” individuals to teach children with his sweat and tears in the form of taxes. That is the issue at hand.
Thank you kindly for understanding now run along and pretend as if you know how the real world works in the private sector.
Hi Jeff! Take your gun to dinner lately?
No complaint here. Travis, thanks for the facts. I have no problem these folks make decent money. I just hope when the rhetoric winds up we dont have to hear from either side complaining the teachers are overpaid or underpaid.
Looks to me like a fair deal and, no, furlough days have no place in negotiations.
No complaint? Really?
How much is someone with a degree and postgraduate credentials and twenty-plus years of experience supposed to make?
I don’t get how in one breath the TV talking heads and demagogues moan about Communism or Kenya or something with the mere suggestion that people making over $250K a year should pay a couple extra percent tax on the portion of their income that exceeds $250K, because these people are “not rich”, and yet a veteran professional making slightly more than one third of that “not rich” amount is positively scandalous?
The complaints about redistribution of wealth are all over the place, but never directed at the plutocrats to whom it’s being redistributed. Of course, this makes me a class warrior yet you hens ar the ones bitching about how good these wealthy teachers have it? Huh, who’s the one with class envy?
I am worried about what is happening to the middle class, and hope there still be one, and yet rather than demand that the plutocrats who stoked the latest economic disaster are held to account, middle class people turn on each other? Making a good wage and have a retirement used to be the minimum of what qualified as middle class, and I’d like to see more people, not less, doing it. It’s a race to the bottom rather than a race back to the middle, and it’s stupid.
Travis, how many teacher are there in the FSD, three or four hundred? Let’s get a %!
There are between 600-700 teachers.
But the AVERAGE total compensation (salary + benefits) for all FSD teachers is $90,054.
Travis, unfortunately lifetime retirement pension and lifetime health benefit costs are NOT included in these figures. The teacher pension system is in major deficit(tens of billions of dollars) and the taxpayers will have to bail them out. The 60% pension of final year pay plus the lifetime health benefits would raise this $90,054 average figure substantially.
And the real scam is that these salaries are based on seniority and bogus credentials, not merit.
The names of those who receive that much money should be public record! I hope it makes these public servants think twice before trying to steal so much money from the public!
Well I admit. I stand corrected.
At the risk of incurring everyone else’s wrath, I would suggest that the focus should not be on the average pay of these teachers. I believe that the data may be confused; I am quite sure that there are quite a few teachers in FESD who earn “gross” pay in excess of $100K, though admittedly they do teach summer school.
What I would like to see is a capping or limit on the top-end compensation of teachers [by reforming the “grade and step” system], with an understanding that the “savings” will be used for non-tenure-track entry level “internships” that pay the same as starting tenure-track teachers. These “revolving door” junior teachers could be used to radically change the student-to-teacher ratio in those troubled FESD schools which have the lowest standardized English and math scores. It would involve altering the “hours of business” at these schools, so as to allow the “revolving door” teachers to act like Japanese or Korean “pound schools”, but with more love and kindness.
I wish there were enough space to tell you about the successes from one-on-one tutoring of IDEA Spanish-speaking students in the area of English vocabulary acquisition. But the troubled students need more structured time in class with a teacher, and preferably more personal access to the teacher during that time.
I see several of my former teachers on this list. Keep in mind my experiences date back 15-24 years ago.
Jeffrey Dotson – Ladera Vista – $96,132
I think he’s been teaching in the district (and maybe at Ladera Vista) since graduating from college. He would be in his mid-50’s by now. Good teacher, deserves to be paid higher on merit alone.
Jon Samuelson – Ladera Vista – $95,346
This one REALLY makes my blood boil. He teaches PE, the easiest job in the world. No lesson plans, no homework to grade, show up to work in a sweatshirt and shorts, babysitting 12-year olds all day long. But that’s not the worst of it, Jon is in his early-to-mid 40’s!!! How the hell did he make the No. 25 spot?
Nancy Henderson – Fisler – $95,263
Wendy Lloyd Davies – Fisler – $94,984
Both women were my teachers at Raymond School a good twenty years ago. I’m guessing they’re around age 50 now.
Jo Bridge – Ladera Vista – $94,984
Another PE teacher at Ladera Vista. She must be in her mid-to-late 60’s by now. I’d like to know how Jon Samuelson, a good TWENTY years younger, doing the same job, makes more money than she does.
Pat Cass – Ladera Vista – $94,984
Math teacher at Ladera Vista. Probably late-50’s, if not older.
Joy Porter – Ladera Vista – $94,984
English teacher at Ladera Vista. I could be wrong, but I think she’s only been in the FSD since 1995 or so. Probably mid-50’s by now.
Andrea Goettinger – Ladera Vista – $91,428
English/Social Science. Mid-50’s. FSD veteran.
Marcy Fry – Rolling Hills – $91,428
FSD veteran. Late 50’s.
Sandra Hearst – Rolling Hills – $91,428
FSD veteran. Early 60’s.
Diane Dombrower – Fern Drive – $98,037
I never had this teacher but a friend did. She had a doctorate of some sort. Longtime FSD veteran.
For the most part I can see longevity being tied into these wages. The only exception is Jon Samuelson.
FWIW…
Can one of the geniuses here in loserville explain how paying teachers less will make for a better education system?
So paying them more has improved the education system?
Epic fail on your part, 4SD.
The fail is that you put words in my mouth I didn’t state.
Answer my question. How will paying teachers less make them better and attract better talent to the profession?
Spoken by someone who I’m betting hasn’t spent one day in a classroom instructing students.
Maybe never even spent one day in a classroom as a student either, or at least a good one.
Right on cue the apologist for every overpaid, over coddled public employee mediocrity rises to the surface.
You may explain away the salary as appropriate. Can you agree it’s time for our public educators to quit the poor mouth routine?
I especially loved the comment by that mango idiot who justified the high salary because it was spread out over the whole year!
Which didn’t answer my question.
How will paying them less make them better?
Adopting a policy of paying the good ones a premium and getting rid of the bad ones will make them better.
Of course that defies the most cherished of all union tenets.
I’ll ‘bingo’ that one too. So, who are the good and bad ones?
Are the bad ones the people taking teaching salaries when in fact they are a PE teacher? I think there’s a strong case to be made that teaching non-academics should be a different category altogether.
But what about actual teachers, people talk about good and bad ones but I don’t think they usually even know what they mean by that. Are bad teachers the ones whose classes score poorly? Or are they teachers where students in their class who did well last year didn’t do as well this year? Or who simply didn’t improve? There is lots of talk about tracking teachers and ‘value added’ but it is so fundamentally flawed that it warrants being called hooey, which it is. On the one hand teachers are freeloaders because they put in so few hours and so few days and have months off, yet at the same time they are criticized for not turning around the life of every random group of kids that they find themselves in charge of, and the minestrone soup of family or psychological or social or other influences that accompany them – in these ‘pitiful’ few hours.
The vast majority of criticisms by people who fundamentally don’t understand how it works are either just wrong, or so wrong as to be contradictory. So, I’ll be interested in what the peanut gallery has to say right after they demonstrate some understanding of what happens in classroom, why education is in the state it’s in, and hell, for starters, if someone will define what ‘bad’ and ‘good’ teachers means.
Can we take the word “deserve” out of this discussion? The public sector workplace is full of hardworking, smart people. But we get paid what the market will bare and what our employer can afford to pay us. If we don’t think we’re being paid a fair wage, we look elsewhere. I suppose we can demand to be paid what we “deserve” but most employers would laugh us out of their office. The bottom line is that the backs of the taxpayers cannot continue to bear the weight of this system and arguing that teachers be paid what they “deserve” is ridiculous.
We don’t get paid what the market can “bare” (maybe you should go back to school).
Why do these idiots keep asking if paying teachers less would be better for kids?
The math is simple. If you pay teachers more reasonable salaries, YOU CAN AFFORD MORE OF THEM, AND KEEP THEM IN CLASS LONGER.
31 kids in a class? 10 furlough days? I think we can do better. The FETA union is screwing us and the kids.
How much do private school teachers get paid? A lot less, I bet.
But plenty of parents must really feel that private school teachers are superior since they shell out thousands of dollars every year so their kids can avoid the public school system.
My daughters friend who mother is a master teacher sent her son to a private school because she knows how bad
the schools are.
Even Obama would never send his daughters to a public school.
Well I see we have a lot of smart people out there that know everything. I would like to suggest that they spend time in a classroom at Orangethorpe and see what a teacher has to put up with. How many of you can speak Spanish! How many of you know how to deal with an Autistic kid that has been mainstreamed! How many of you are required to know how to decipher if a kid is ADD or ADHD and have to make sure the kids are taking there medication!
How many of you have your Masters Degree and Doctorate like most of these teachers do! Go out in the work force and see what having those degrees does for you. And they are not the ones that decided what the pay scale is.
If you want change then get off your lazy asses and do something about it! But I bet it will be just like most of the parents these teachers have to deal with, never around when you need them but always griping.
My violin! Where’s my violin?
“Most” of the teachers in the FSD hold doctorate degrees? In my 13 years as a student in Fullerton, I had 1 teacher who held a doctorate degree and I don’t see him listed here.
Thanks Fullerton Rudy you have replied just how someone that will do nothing about it would!
No, I replied just how someone who has no sympathy for the fake crocodile tears of allegedly underpaid teachers would.
I would like to see a total compensation analysis (salary, health insurance, pension, etc) on an annualized basis for these folks. I bet the numbers are staggering.
Out of curiosity, what should a teacher be paid? Also what about administration pay? There are some administrators in California that are making 7 figures and living in free houses, and don’t spend a day in the class. Or should only teachers take a hit?
A teacher should be paid what the market will bear. Ditto administrators.
And commonsense suggests the administrators should be the lowest paid people on campus.
I have a few comments.
1. I think the post is valuable because there is a broad misconception out there that all teachers are underpaid. Humanizing the reality of teacher pay in Fullerton is one good way of making the truth known. Note that Travis succeeded at changing the debate from whether teachers are adequately paid to a conversation about how teachers should be paid.
2. For those of you who just can’t resist getting out of the gutter, your points really will be better made if you choose more effective language…and rethink the ad hominem attacks. This site should remain virtually wide open, but so many readers and potential contributors are lost with that stuff right out of the gate. I do appreciate the passion however.
3. Contrary to the assertions of “Friend of Chis Thomson”, I do not believe that we have any teachers in the district who should remain employed and make $10/hr. Maybe, just maybe that comment had a nefarious agenda behind it. Just really unfortunate choice of words my friend.
4. For obvious reasons I am not going to comment on individual teachers by name here, however I will say that the only two teachers on that list that our family has experience with are legitimately two of the finest teachers in the district.
5. Tony hit the nail on the head. It’s not about what teachers deserve. It’s about compensating them based how they perform and the incorporation of market forces into that process. We have to defeat the notion that since evaluation is both challenging and imperfect that it should be discarded. Evaluation has it’s challenges in virutally every line of work.
6. If you find these issues compelling you should consider making your opinions known at the next serveral board meetings. We are in the thick of both budget development and labor negotiations. The communities political will matters. The meeting calander can be found at: http://www.fsd.k12.ca.us/menus/Board/boardcalendar.html.
Mr Thompson,
Please explain why you think this post is so valuable. We really would like to hear your views on this. Please comment on why all of these sarcastic comments are a good thing and why you choose to associate with these people.
Do you believe these tactics makes teachers more accountable? Why is subjecting these teachers to personal attacks a good thing?
What kind of person thinks this is all bad, why do you think that anyone would be offended by the nature of this blog and site? Are they justified at all in thinking the tactics here are abusive, satirical or harmful?
Thanks.
Okay Mr. Anonymous what do YOU propose to make teachers more accountable? We are all dying to hear your ideas!
Hello admin,
Are you answering the question for Mr. Thompson? Is this his response? I was hoping he could answer personally.
I was asking on my own. I’m really interested in what you and people you choose to associate with have to say on the subject of teacher accountability.
Admin,
I have no problem with holding anyone accountable. If you read my question, it has more to do with your tactics and why he is support of them.
I owe this response to Anonymous from his/her comment #54.
This post is extremely valuable. I have been talking (mostly to myself) about the insanity of our current system of teacher compensation for years. I would say that this single post represents upwards of 30% of all of the debate I’ve ever seen on this issue in this town. I understand your point Anonymous. Many of the sarcastic and accusatorial comments are not helpful and I wish the authors of those comments would reconsider their language. However, we are in a crisis. Now is not the time to sacrifice the need for a revolution of sanity in the name manners. Look, the blog uses provocative language and conflict in order to attract activity and some people just flat out have fun with it. I personally dislike the ugliest of it. However, this blog is where the debate is occurring. If you can point to me to a polite blog or forum in Fullerton where these serious debates are both occurring and finding the participation of people who are willing to speak to them honestly, please do so. My quick count shows that 42 different posting names have posted 117 comments. Obviously some of the people commenting probably have used more than one name. If half of them are unique there is still no other forum in Fullerton that touches this one for real, open, sometimes insightful and sometimes foolish debate.
With respect to why I associate with “these people”, if you are referring to all of the people commenting, I have some vague guesses about people that probably comment, but I truly don’t know who the anonymous posters are. Interestingly, when people assert that they know who is who, my gut is that they are wrong 95% of the time. If you are referring to Tony and Travis, I absolutely call them friends and associates for a variety of reasons. Politically speaking, the primary reason I associate with them is because they are two of the hardest working, least self-serving political activists I have ever known. They are both committed to small, transparent, constitutional government. People love to paint Tony as some sort of self-serving political kingpin, but it is my perspective that he could not possibly cost himself more pursuing his political interests than he does. I’ve been waiting for an awfully long time for somebody to point out to me where Tony financially benefits for doing any of this stuff. You’re welcome to try. Travis has become a very good friend. He does all of this out of passion and is amongst the most honest people I have ever met. You’re not going to catch the guy lying.
If I am understanding your question, “What kind of person thinks this is all bad?”, my answer is probably somebody who is overly influenced by emotion. Somebody who believes that all value in a debate is lost once somebody’s feelings are hurt. Of course some people are offended by this site. In the case of this post, the vast majority of teachers who do not spend any energy examining the political reality of their union, the foolishness of step and column compensation methods, the insanity of forcing school districts into collective bargaining as a result of the incomparable political influence of the CTA, the statistical impact of poor performing teachers on children, will all simply get their feelings hurt by their assumption that the point of the post is to say that they earn too much money. That is not the point of the post. In fact, the point of the post is not to hold teachers accountable. To the point of many commenters, the point of the post is to simultaneously educate readers on teacher compensation and to hold the voters, the school board and the legislature accountable for the whole ugly picture. So to your last question as to whether “they” are justified in thinking the tactics are abusive, satirical or harmful? My answers are,
Abusive? Sometimes.
Satirical? Absolutely.
Harmful? Sometimes, but in light of the circumstances we face, on balance, no. I think I’ve covered it all.
Thanks for the sincere question Anonymous and I apologize for torturing everybody else with the long answer.
Chris
Don’t forget sarcasm – which is meant to harm. This place is full of sarcasm.
Let’s all hold hands around the campfire.
Don’t care to hear Tony’s puppets little comments. Go play guns with your kid.
sounds a little like keller’s posse
Ugh, this conversation is getting tedious. Is it time for Spring Break yet?
SPRING BREAK! WOOOO!
Does the district still pay for teachers’ health insurance premiums during the summer when they’re not working?
Sorry Joe. And yes.
Teachers pay 12%.
I see that Janny Meyer was a recipient of the school district’s largess less than a year ago. Now she is on the board negotiating AGAINST the union? Yeah right.
So we have 700 teachers each making $400-500 per day, and then cycling a percentage of that back into the union coffers, which is then used to influence politicians into doling out more and more benefits.
Now I see how we got into this crisis.
You forgot the teachers’ troops. You know, the PTA…
No, according to ratemyteachers.com, Mr. Samuelson is “the easiest PE teacher everrr but hes really really really really really really cool” and “THE AWESOMEST PE TEACHER EVER!!!!!”
It’s sad that the teachers get villanized when they are not the one’s that set the pay scale.
Get involved if you want change.
Don’t sit around posting degrading things about being a teacher when you no nothing about it.
And by the way I’m glad that they post the salaries as they should for all public employees.
And the salaries reflect total compensation, health insurance, extra pay and summer school.
“Get involved if you want change.
Don’t sit around posting degrading things about being a teacher when you no nothing about it.”
We are doing something abut it. Step one is public awareness. Duh!
Your correct awareness is the first step, but to degrade teachers like some of these post have done is very wrong.
Try going after the school board members that excepted these pay scales. Again I say the teachers only collect what is do them and nothing more. They did not set the pay scale! If you really look at it it was the voters in Fullerton that voted in the school board members that should be blamed!
Husband, first you were trying to justify these salaries, but now it seems that you have moved on to trying to place the blame.
I’d say we’re making progress!
READ my first post it says to make a change get off your lazy asses and do something about it. Don’t blame the teachers!
And I will always justify there salaries!
“Try going after the school board members that excepted these pay scales.”
Oh, we’re going to do that!
That’s pathetic reasoning. Let’s just forget the role the teachers had in electing the very trustees who then caved in during labor negotiations.
So you know all of these teachers live in the Fullerton voting district? A population of 126,000 and 700 teachers changed the vote.
“Try going after the school board members that excepted these pay scales.”
You might want to have WIFE teach you the difference between “excepted” versus accepted.
I don’t “no” where you went to school, but it sounds like your English teacher was underpaid!
Hey Gonzo, Esq., we’d like you to write a blog post (or two…) for FFFF, what do you think?
Sorry Husband,
The posted salaries DO NOT refect total compensation. You left out the lifetime 60% of final year pay pension and lifetime health benefits after retirement. If these teachers will be earning $100,000 at retirement after 30 years, they will have an annual pension of $60,000 per year. Add that and the health benefit cost after retirement and divide by the years worked to get the estimated cost to the taxpayer. Some teachers will actually earn more in retirement pay than what they got paid on their paychecks over 30 years!
Can you reference that summer school is included in this pay? Thanks in advance.
False. Most of these teachers are at column 4 and step 24, which puts base salary at $94,984. Everything else is icing on the cake.
I have not been to college in many years. Is it hard to add a Master’s degree to one’s repertoire these days?
Our rigorous academic programs are designed for future teachers and current educators who believe in working collaboratively to meet the challenges of 21st century schools.
We offer online doctoral programs to professionals who want to make a meaningful social contribution to their communities and influence change in their fields through scholarly research.
Sadly this conversation has not addressed the very nature of my original question. Why are we bowing to the CTA and the NEA in order to “value” some as a teacher. NCLB and IDEA are horrific laws that only perpetuate these inane concepts.
“Husband” these people are attempting to do something about it. It’s called changing the School Board. Rather than throw what is obviously impossible (getting a teaching job while satisfying the CTA, NEA etc.) and then doing this job for free, the call is for a form of merit based pay scale in line with……wait for it……………………………………supply and demand market economics.
The same supply and demand which the private sector must deal with.
You see the CTA, NEA and Congress rigged the supply…..by passing NCLB and IDEA. Now the demand is on the taxpayers to “Pay up” in order to adhere to these poor laws.
Anonymous, I think it’s a valuable question for this blog. When I have time hopefully tonight I’ll give you a complete answer, but for me this this post is not about holding the listed teachers accountable. It’s about trying to replace our currently insane system of public school compensation. I believe there is no source of media oror discussion that remotely touches this one for opening up meaningful dialouge on all Fullerton issues. However, I think you’ve well hit upon many of the key complaints about the blog and I want to address them. Thanks…… CT
make sure you and your buddies here craft a real good response in the time you’ve given yourself. i think we all know you can’t function unless your receiving texts from this group during your board meetings.
A2, I think you have Chris confused with past board members.
Text messages/emails read and/or responded to by public officials during public meetings are subject to public records requests.
No wonder why Fullerton USD blocked FFFF for IT purposes in the district!
That sounds like a reasonable position.
I went to Nicholas Jr. high and I saw a teacher I had on this list and can not for the life of me figure out why. Stacy UDKOFF-VETROVEC was the “design” teacher. I took the class thinking it was going to be modeling and beginners drafting only to find out I was taking an arts and crafts class. It was so basic it was beyond stupid. I wouldn’t pay a day care to instruct me children in the pure waste of time I had to deal with. her receiving $90,000 a year is a plain waste of tax dollars and my children’s time.
I see some of the best and worst teachers that I’ve ever had on this list. The problem is that there is just no discernible correlation between merit and pay.
Bingo!
A successful teacher is probably worth 90K. But 90K for a mediocre or bad one; or to hand out basketballs? Nuh uh, as Hee Haw would say.
You are either very stupid or very disingenuous. Do you know how much your wife’s union has poured into school district elections to elect RINOs and liberal over the years?
I bet you do.
I definitely consider myself right of center on most issues. But I find this argument hypocritical in a sense. I mean it’s NOT ok for teachers to have unions and try to help their interests, but it is ok for the political right to have their own special interests like Oil and Business Associations try to better their interests? If anything I find less fault with unions and the democrats because their supports comes from a lot more people than the interests of a few who back Republicans.
Huh?
“Husband” wants us to blame the trustees for giving away the store – not the unions that put them into office and then negotiated with them.
My guess is that you are about as “right-of-center” as Jesse Jackson.
All I’m asking you to acknowledge is that EVERYONE tries to exert political control. Somehow because the teachers are apparently good at it you’re blaming them? Change needs to be made to our WHOLE political system. Like I said, and you didn’t comment on, I’m far more upset that a small number of oil companies that don’t even reside in the US put a ton of money into our political system than I am a whole lot of individual teachers through their union are doing the same.
AG,
You are right. Most of the blame goes to the school board.
Hey, Fullerturd Rudy….you must be one of the bitter, unemployed types. What’s the matter, sweetie? The 99 weeks are up?
Well you’re sitting pretty with that hard-earned GED and three weeks at camp McPension.
Maybe Thompson could force a viewing of waiting for superman during a school board meeting or how about submitting the data from the bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. It shows we pay way too much for the product we are getting from the union hacks!
Plus we are all in trouble now Jerry Brown is going
to make cuts where people will feel it! So in November we’ll vote for higher taxes!
I work at least 9-10 hours a day. I get work done during lunch and recess. I take work home. I have a Masters and an admin credential. I take work home over the summer. I work my tail off for YOUR children. If you TRULY want to learn about teaching and become educated, I suggest seeing the film Race to Nowhere. Read the book Teachers Have It Easy. Or try The Teaching Penalty, which is available online. BTW, the salaries published are pre-furlough days. I challenge any of you who think we are overpaid to A) become truly educated on the issues surrounding teaching and B) try doing my job for a week. My bet is you would be leaving skid arks as you tore out of the parking lot by lunch.
FSD Teacher,
Sounds like you are pulling the load for many around you. Many of the FSD schools like Nicholas, Ladera Vista, and Commonwealth are terrible. Part of the problem are bad teachers who are tenured but a larger problem is the lack of parental involvement.
You work your ass off while many teachers do minimal work to get by. You know who those teachers are. Don’t defend them, condemn them. Help formulate a plan to reward GREAT teachers who actually work and a way to replace those who are not effective.
And that would be skid marks. On my iPhone during my RECESS break. So don’t even start with those comments!
Isn’t it a half-day today?
The principals know which teachers are good and which ones aren’t. Why don’t we let them actually manage, reward and discipline their own employees?
But aren’t principals typically just overpaid administrative bloat waiting to retire to easy street? Why would you let them decide anything.
I love, this, all this pontificating abot good versus bad teachers yet so far no one even attempted to actually codify what makes a good teacher, and what makes a bad one. Bravo.
Travis,
Do you have the first clue as to what it takes to teach in a school? Do you think that all work is done from September to June and from 8:00 to 3:00? When do you think they do their grading and prepping and planning? Come and teach for a week, and call them overpaid. You damage your credibility by looking at salary alone, and not the value that teachers bring to their classrooms and schools. I could see a problem with teachers that do not teach, but I know some of the teachers you speak of, and they are very valuable to their schools, and more importantly, their students. If you want to be accurate, evaluate a teacher’s salary, with those with similar degrees in other professions, as well as the time they have spent in those professions (I assume the teachers on your list have at least twenty years seniority, and your totals are not considering the furlough days this year). Bottom line, you know the price of everything, but the value of nothing when it comes to this list.
No, I work hard. I am not carrying anyone else’s load. Of course there are a few bad teachers, but they are a very small number, just like in any profession. The problem with this is administrators who do not do THEIR jobs. Even with permanent status, it is not difficult to get rid of a bad teacher. I also wanted to add that our benefits and retirement come out of our salary. Not above and beyond. We pay for all of that.
To the teachers above who insist that they work very hard, I have one question:
Why do you let your union dictate that you get paid exactly the same as those teachers who don’t work as hard?
Because even the hardest working, wisest, and most skilled teachers are ultimately cowards when it comes to challenging their own union for what should be rightfully theirs.
Plus, inertia is a bitch.
Well I think it is because it is better than the alternative. I mean of course you aren’t going to get any argument that good teachers should get paid more than merely adequate teachers or even poor teachers in an ideal world. However there is no such thing as an ideal world. If you make it too easy to get rid of teachers then teachers (even the best of them) wouldn’t be able to stand up to administrators/districts when they make poor decisions or purely financially motivated decisions.
I think this is especially true in poorer districts. I mean if the parents barely speak English and are rarely involved at school then they just simply aren’t going to know if their kids are getting shafted by the district. It’s teachers in those neighborhoods and even well off neighborhoods who are the whistleblowers against things that shouldn’t happen and hold the district accountable. With tenure, teachers can speak up w/o risking their livelihood.
So yea, the current situation isn’t the best but I’ll take it over the alternative of getting rid of teachers because a Principal doesn’t like
them for some stupid insignificant reason.
Also as mentioned by FSD Teacher, Administrators CAN get rid of teachers for cause.
Not to pile on the teachers, but if you are making $90K per year, should’nt you be able to do the job in the allotted time?
Your salary does NOT include all that extra time you put in. Otherwise if you worked as much as you say, you’d be making $120!!
You get paid an extraordinary amount for working M-F 8-4. If you can’t do the job in that amount of time, talk to your principal or another teacher to better manage your time.
NOBODY is asking you to grade papers at night or on Saturday. Do it during the day, while you are on the clock!
FSD Teachers arguement is a poor one.
“NOBODY is asking you to grade papers at night or on Saturday. Do it during the day, while you are on the clock!”
I, uh.. Wha? Did I just lose a week, is it April 1?
Tony, if I could I would, but to do a thorough job, it is physically impossible to teach children, plan, and grade papers in the allotted time. Obviously, you are clueless as to how much teachers work. If it was M-F 8-4, I would agree with you, but it’s usually M-F, 6:30 – 6:00 (sometimes later at home), with grading done on the weekends (I teach middle school English-150 students). I am not on that list, because I am in my eighth year, but I can tell you after being a teacher, the good and great ones earn every penny! FSD Teacher’s point is valid, and not clear to you because you are looking at the profession as if it were something you punch a time clock for. I sacrifice much of my personal time, as do most teachers. Just like there are bad cops, doctors, dentists, and biased bloggers, there are poor teachers. They get the news, like the bad cops and plane crashes do. It’s sad that people criticize teachers because they think that because they sat in a classroom for a number of years, they they know all about education. Well, I have been going to the dentist for over forty years, so I’m sure you wouldn’t mind me drilling on your teeth right? And YES, someone is asking me to grade papers on a Saturday night because it needs to get done. If my principal saw me grading papers during instructional time, I would be in big trouble, but you don’t get that do you?
L. Reynolds:
YES or NO?
Would your time be better spent finding more effective ways to TEACH rather than hours spent grading (and maybe nitpicking) every little thing your students do?
There’s a night and day difference between the FSD / FJUHSD environment and Fullerton College/CSUF. I learned exponentially more in college than I ever did before. Professors don’t assign stupid busywork. Between classes I actually had time to review my notes and read the textbook. This never happened in grades K-12. I was so busy trying to finish the stupid assignments you guys handed out (to keep my grades up) that I never had time for studying.
Maybe Mr. Thompson will step in and tell you how much influence individual teachers have over district approved curriculum, and how much latitude they have to just toss it out and do something else.
Concur Nipsey. Individual teachers very little. If the CTA’s mission were to support children, they would have incredible power in that area. Unfortunately and predictably, they use all of their significant equity to secure reduced accountability, benefits and job security.
You assume too much in reference to what I grade, and what I TEACH sir. Either way, it’s a catch 22 with you. If I’m too thorough, I am nitpicking, but if I just check it off as complete without giving feedback, then I’m careless. And your assumption about my “stupid busywork” only shows that your mind is made up long before you posted anything. My assignments are aligned with California ELA Standards. I don’t do worksheets, and I try my best to make the subject matter meaningful to my students.
Speaking of which, I’m wondering about your comment on creative writing and request to teach certain vocabulary is perplexing to me. How engaged do you think the average 7/8 grade student is going to be with your suggestion? And your dismissal of fiction as a genre in the classroom speaks of your lack of appreciation for the writing process. Language acquisition and learning needs to connect beyond the factual, and it needs to be meaningful to the student. It is still called Language ARTS for that very reason!
I didn’t mean to suggest you personally assign stupid busywork. Sorry about that. I just know it’s a widespread problem. Chances are, if you aren’t doing it, the teacher in the next classroom over is.
Nitpicking isn’t the problem if it’s carried out properly. Are you nitpicking to HELP your students, or using it to lower their grades? I encountered the latter quite frequently. It really ruined my self esteem because on some assignments I did the very best I could. When I questioned a teacher about their grading, I would usually get yelled at.
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on your next point. Reading novels, creative writing, and poetry was the best way to DISENGAGE my interest every time. I didn’t care about those things. I desperately wanted reading and writing skills I could use when I became old enough to work.
All types of fiction should be eliminated from the public school system, IMHO. We don’t have time to give kids an “appreciation” of the English language through fiction or poetry anymore. They need reading and writing skills to succeed in the workplace. Until the education system wakes up and realizes this fact, our jobs will continue to be outsourced to other countries. High school graduates these days are illiterate or inept in nearly every subject. I was one of them.
If you don’t believe K-12 teachers are failing our kids, check out a Fullerton College class schedule some time. This semester, FJC is offering 78 remedial English, 97 remedial Math, and 27 remedial Reading classes.
Our K-12 system is a joke.
L Reynolds,
pehaps it is differnt in the 6-9 grade level (I don’t know where you teach), but with regard to Elementary education the standard (by practice, not by law) is to have peers grade the work. A recent upheaval at a neighboring district’s elementary school found that one class had 88% of classwork reviewed by peers as opposed to teachers. Now admittedly that is an extreme example, but just the same that teacher was defended (and ultimately retained) by CTA officials, despite an outpouring of objections from the “lower middle class” parents.
My point was simple. Teacher pay might be considered excessive by some, but when the defenders of it claim they work “UNTOLD HOURS” and are “NOT COMPENSATED” they lose credibilty.
As for being clueless, I am not. I have considerble experience in and out of the classroom, most recently working for the state of California to find a way out of this mess we are in.
You should be more insightful considering it’s your hard work and years of labor that are at risk. CSTRS is in dire straights thanks to mismanagement and blind faith of it’s members.
The bottom line is, school teachers are a great part of our culture, but that greatness has been hijacked and taken advantage of by a greedy few, leading many more to feel entitled.
WHO PAYS THE PRICE NOW???
Those kids you love so much.
Tony,
First of all, no one was complaining about the extra hours, but merely stating that to truly do a quality job, the job I and other teachers have been commissioned to do, it is not feasible to work from 8-4 m-f. My question regarding peer grading is this:
If my students can adequately and fairly correct and grade the work, how rigorous and thorough are my lessons and teaching? I teach 7/8 grade English in another district, but I am a Fullerton resident, with a child entering kindergarten next year.
I would like to know how and what you are doing to solve this problem, as you claim? Have you taught before, or is your classroom experience like most, being a student? You say school teachers are a great part of our culture, yet in comparison to other countries, we are not nearly as respected by it’s citizenry. You obviously have an agenda against the CTA, and other organizations, and your assumptions that teachers complain is wrong. There is a difference between complaining and making an observation. If I could do a great job in six hours, trust me, I would. So, does that make me a bad teacher, or one that is ineffective with my time? I have 153 students that write five paragraph essays. I also journal with them all at least once a week. We also read from our anthology text, as well as have literature circles going on. I also have after school tutoring on Tues and Thurs, and I have a bowling club on Wed (all on my time, but I’m not complaining). There are many teachers that do these things, but you never hear about them, only ones that make the headlines, which is usually bad news, because that sells.
And yes, I love my kids, and no, they are not paying the price. Again, your point, as simple as it is, rests on the assumption that a teacher is complaining about the unpaid hours… mentioning yes, complaining no!
Sorry, the dentist analogy doesn’t work because if your teeth had the same dropout rate as the public schools, you would demand a refund and sue the dentist for negligence. Unfortunately, the taxpayers don’t have the same recourse. Outrageous public teacher compensation for terrible results is bankrupting our nation’s schools and our nation’s future supply of skilled workers. It’s time for vouchers.
One of the reasons teachers take work home is because they assign grades to bullshit busy work that students don’t learn from. So the teachers’ workload is often self-inflicted and unnecessary.
I had teachers in the FSD assign me crossword puzzles and then check to see if each and every word was correct. They probably spent 5 minutes per student on this. What difference does it make if a couple words are wrong? How will students benefit later in life by checking their proficiency at crossword puzzles?
A lot of my teachers were fascinated with maps and diagrams and wanted students to color-code them with crayons or colored pencils. I still remember a map assignment in 8th grade where we were told to color code each county with a colored pencil and make a legend off to the side. California has 58 counties. What a joke. When I made the Legend on the side of the map, I pressed too hard with the colored pencils, making the color look darker than on the map. My dipshit teacher checked all the colors and since they didn’t match up to her satisfaction, I was given a C-.
So I have NO SYMPATHY whatsoever for teachers taking work home. You waste your students’ time with stupid assignments, that’s your fault.
Former Student – Sorry about your map experience. I can assure you that my students do not do busy work, and I do not spend my time grading said work. There should have been an administrator questioning the connection between the lesson and the content standards that needed to be taught. I have a question for you, and please be honest: Did you have any good teachers, or were they all like the person you described above?
I also think we need to change many things about our education system. The way we measure student achievement being one of them. Our testing system does not challenge our students to think, and since we as teachers are judged by this system, we are pushed into prepping them for these tests. The CST primarily measures knowledge, which is valuable if you’re a contestant on Jeopardy!, but there is no measurement for critical thinking, or creativity. Those are things I try to teach in my classroom, but they are not measured in the current assessment process. Whatever experiences you had as a student, know that most teachers go above and beyond to help their students.
Thanks for the fair and honest response.
You asked whether I had any good teachers? That’s a tough question. My definition of good is substantially different now. As a kid, a “good” teacher was a person that didn’t yell at us on a daily basis and recognized the effort we put in, even if our assignments weren’t up to par. In this context, I did have some “good” teachers, but whether I learned anything from them is an entirely different matter.
I felt really stupid when I graduated from high school. My English skills were above average, but like the majority of my classmates, our Math and Science skills were abominable.
Since you teach English, could I ask a favor for the sake of our kids? Cut out as much of the poetry, creative writing, and the reading of novels as possible. Use the time to better the students’ everyday vocabulary so they can read newspapers or watch the TV news and know what the gist of the story is about.
I’m a product of Fullerton schools and no teacher ever taught us political or legal vocabulary. Not even the basics. Whenever adults would try to engage me in a mature conversation about current events, I would wiggle my way out because I was so ashamed of my vocabulary.
In short, you’re doing them a HUGE disservice by making them read fictional novels and poetry when their real-world skills are lacking.
FS, I sort of disagree.
The more and diverse the reading the better – so long as the writing is good. The vocabulary will come with it if the kids are engaged.
Jesus, we spent so much time reading crappy books.
FS – I am replying here, because the other place you responded would not allow me to do so. I accept your apology, and respect what you said.
It is so counter-intuitive to me that a teacher would want to penalize a student in the way that you described. If that happened, it is truly unfortunate.
As far as your aversion to the more artistic side of language, I would say that you are more the exception than the rule. Language development is not as simple as, “Here are the words you need to know by Friday.” Language is an experience that occurs through reading, writing, listening, and speaking. Most students and adults can tell you a novel, or chapter book that they fell in love with as a child (“Where the Red Fern Grows” by Wilson Rawls) that was their portal into increasing his or her linguistic skills. Literacy has many roads one can travel on, but the common denominator is that one must read something that keeps their interest. My task is to help students find that connection. For most, it is fictional novels, and for others it might be non-fiction. I want them to fall in love with reading, and I try to offer them as many choices as possible. One of the first things we are taught in our University Credential Program is to be careful of using our own experience to apply it to the general population of our students. We were encouraged to look at research and theory that addresses a broader population. This is especially true for me, since I am a 45 y.o. Caucasian male, and I work in a school that is 98% Hispanic, with a very large number being second language learners. Their needs and experiences are vastly different than mine, therefore I need to have a different approach.
I do agree with you that the k-12 system is not meeting our students’ needs, but I do not put that squarely on the shoulders of teachers (as I don’t think you do either). I do place it on a system that measures student achievement with tests that offer little beyond memory retention. There is a NON FICTION book (couldn’t resist the caps there! :-)) by Tony Wagner called “The Global Achievement Gap”. This book documents the effects of standardized testing, and it’s dilution of critical thinking skills. Also, here is a link for something you might have an opinion on:
http://comment.rsablogs.org.uk/2010/10/14/rsa-animate-changing-education-paradigms/
Sir Ken Robinson is the lecturer (He is also on TED.com).
Finally, see the movie “Race to No Where”. This movie is very eye-opening about how much emphasis we put on standardized testing in our country.
So, please be informed that teachers are but a piece of this, and they must follow the mandates of districts and government entities. Now that does not excuse those horrible stories you told in other posts, and I would not want those people teaching kids, just like I don’t want crooked cops, or unethical attorneys etc…
Thanks for your candor and let me know what you think of what is on the link.
I see it for myself that they give the kids mindless papers to fill out, just like little monkeys, and if they do not follow the rules they are deducted grade points.
Fill the blanks, do not think, turn it in, it is a disease that has invaded colleges, the same teachers same philosophy.
But in the long run the teachers will get their pensions unless the young people realize the load of crap they are selling to them and their families.
Why should they educate you and all students properly? Then they would be aware of the inequities of the school system and vote accordingly for your own children, not Democrat nor Republican but aware that all the youth need to stand up for themselves because they can no longer rely on the selfish decisions of the entitled government worker.
I’ve heard through the grapevine that Sharon Quirk (and some other teachers) do NOT work 5-days per week on a regular basis.
Instead they work 4-days per week. I don’t know if this happens every week, every other week, once a month, etc, but it does happen.
What pissed me off is that Sharon Quirk scheduled one of her city council coffee meetings on a weekday morning when school was in session because she had the day off.
Travis, do you know more?
I’m not sure what days Sharon works and doesn’t work, but I do know that she works an 80% contract and is paid on an 80% contract. I actually confirmed this with her.
The reason teachers are consistently grading papers on the weekend and “off the clock” is due to the simple fact that the CTA, NEA and NCLB and IDEA all require so much testing.
Teachers are forced to teach to the State, and Fed testing guidelines. Take a look at the “State Standards” for each grade. It’s pathetic, never will you find the ability for teachers to have the freedom to actually, TEACH STUDENTS HOW TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES.
Rather they are forced to teach to a set of Standards that those in “power” have deemed the peniltulant meaning behind public education. This is why Teachers are working so hard. It is a vicious cycle.
Now with that said supply and demand should continue to drive the market. Voters should be given the opportunity to revise these pathetic rules by which the Teachers must use.
Can you all see how the CTA and the NEA has gamed the system? Teachers you have to agree with me here. Those that are excellent would much rather have the freedom to teach students how to think rather than “standards.”
Those of you calling for all of this work to occur within the Teaching hours are living in a dream world. It’s not possible. With that said again the free market economy should rule. Taxpayers should not be punished for these pathetic unions and laws.
I don’t buy that.
I went through school before these testing standards were put in place. Even then, my teachers complained about grading papers on nights and weekends. They rarely tried to teach us how to think for ourselves. It was constant liberal propaganda being shoved down our throats (as usual). FSD Elementary schools were obsessed with Earth Day and CFC’s found in styrofoam cups during the late 80’s. We were told repeatedly not to crush styrofoam products because CFC’s would be released and the Ozone layer would be further destroyed. I’m not kidding. FSD teachers really are that stupid.
Uhhh, high stakes testing and CST’s came around WAY before the late eighties man… buy what you want, but you’re wrong.
What I’m saying is we were never prepared for testing. The teachers didn’t care if we “passed” or “failed” so while there were tests, the schools I attended never manipulated the lesson plans around those tests. I never had to take any promotion or exit exams.
Sorry for the confusion.
You are correct that the CTA has ruined almost every aspect of public education. And FETA is part of the CTA. And almost all of these teachers are part of FETA.
Unless they speak up, they all share the blame.
This blog is for retards.
And so you’re in the right place dude!
How do you argue with an argument as insightful, poignant, and well-reasoned as this?
I found your thesis to be astute, perspicacious, and well-supported by relevant facts, if not a little disjointed and difficult to follow at times.
Such prose!
Former Student,
I’m sad that your education was so biased. That too is not Constitutional, nor is it teaching students to think for themselves.
FSD must have had some very poor hiring standards during the 80’s/90’s.
I can’t speak to that period of time, only what is actually happening now. The system is rigged.
Ray, I believe the words your looking for is “Intellectually Deficient” This is the new Judge ordered term for what was formerly known as “retarded.”
My K-12 years were the darkest years of my life. I think I was more mature than most kids my age, so the corruption was easier to see.
Ladera Vista and Troy High School were the most corrupt. It wasn’t just hiring standards, the administration was spineless and utterly worthless.
At Ladera Vista, the assistant principal (and some students) caught the Photography teacher masturbating to pornographic magazines in his classroom. As it was, the girls felt really uncomfortable around this man. He would drop things on the floor and ask the large-breasted girls to pick them up so he could look down their tops. To my knowledge, this man was NEVER FIRED. He remained a teacher long after the incident occurred.
Troy High School was far more corrupt. I witnessed 2 teachers physically assault students. The first time involved a mentally-retarded student and the man assigned to watch him in the weight room. This man had a temper and when the retarded student wouldn’t listen to him, he punched the student square in the chest.
The other time an English teacher decided she would search through a girl’s belongings while the girl went to the bathroom. She picked up the girl’s purse/gym bag, took it to the front of the class and started rummaging through it. The girl returns and is justifiably upset. She attempts to take the bag from the teacher. Next thing you know, the girl is being pinned against the chalkboard with the teacher’s hands around her neck. Realizing she screwed up, the teacher goes nextdoor and pulls that teacher aside and tells him to lie on her behalf, that the girl started the altercation and not her. The other teacher backed her up and the girl was suspended, even though 35 students witnessed something entirely different.
I went to an administrator both times. I was called a liar the first time. The second time I was threatened with a Saturday School for fabricating more lies.
Oh yeah, how could I forget the math teacher at Troy High School who PLED GUILTY to two counts of sodomy with a female student under 18?
Believe me, the corruption in both districts is far worse than you hear about.
Hi Former Student. Can you do me a favor and email off-line at chris@btrepro.com? I have a couple of questions for you. Thanks
Chris
Former Student, it sounds like you went to school around the same time I did. One of our two male teachers at Pacific Drive was arrested and fired for “molesting” a girl. Problem was, no one believed he was guilty..who knows?
In Junior High we had another male teacher who yelled a lot and punished the boys pretty severely. No one seemed to report this behavior or if they did nothing ever changed.
In High School, Sunny Hills, one of my girlfriends was dating one of the teachers.
One of my male friends graduated without being able to read or write above a first grade level. In my opinion, that was a crime. I wonder what else went on during that time?
There’s a government/history teacher at Fullerton High School who married one of his students after she graduated from FUHS and turned 18.
As a student, telling anybody in charge about a teacher’s wrongdoings was a waste of time. They regard all students as second-class citizens, too stupid to know what they saw, or just automatic liars because they’re not adults yet.
Something similar happened at Orange High when I was younger, a coach was dating and living with his student , she was 16 years, but when she became he broke it off with her, she was too old.
A ladera Vista teacher warned me that although Troy had a Special Ed dept. she would not recommend the school because many students are neglected and if parent really knew what they really did they would have no students at all.
I did not heed the warning and when my daughter went to the classes I find that they have a fake school psychologist , he is just a teacher who has taken a few courses and many of the so called special ed teachers are coaches, and since they have to keep them they become the special ed teachers, instead of qualified people because of seniority/tenure and they are related somehow to the someone in the district.
The worst part is that these salaries are not their total compensation. According to a Calstrs chart, a teacher retiring at 55 with 30 years of teaching, will receive 60% of their FINAL year of pay as their pension FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE! Now, consider that these teachers aren’t even in their final year yet, they will probably be earning $60,000 per year (60% of $100,000 or so) in retirement pay.
Add in their paid health insurance for life and projecting a lifespan of 30 years after retirement, and we’re talking about total compensation of about $165,000 or more per year for 180 days of work! That’s not $500 a day, that’s more than $900 PER DAY OF COMPENSATION!!!
John,
The Fullerton district does not provide “paid health insurance for life” after they retire.
Let’s pro-rate the 180 days of work to a normal 240 days for full-time and we’re talking about $220,000 per year or more of total compensation!
This is the biggest scam going that no one knows about…
“BUT, IT”S FOR THE CHILDREN!” is what we keep on hearing. Yea right!
How many parents are getting letters from the schools requesting toilet paper, pencils, pens, writing paper and even “emergency food”(that never gets returned at the end of the year)? My worker got a note saying they needed $25 worth of food and $50 worth of supplies. We are being robbed! I never brought anything for the school; there was never a note requesting it. Now all the money is being sucked up by the lifetime pension cost(60% of final year pay and health insurance too for the rest of their lives).
Finally, someone steps up to tackle the shortage of hyperbole, all caps and exclamation points.
Let’s add in all of the compensation, including the pension cost into the working years for a true total compensation. Most working people don’t get a pension, let alone 60% of final year pay for life and health benefits for life, working 30 years at 180 days per year.
Yea Nipsey, I use caps and exclamations to show my disgust. Hyperbole you say? You call exposing outrageous total compensation by these listed teachers hyperbole? I call it FRAUD!
$90,000 listed isn’t close to their total compensation. Having the above teachers make $165,000+ total is sickening to say the least, all for 170 days a year of actual work(180-10 days of paid sick time).
Gee John, this teaching gig is getting more lucrative by the minute! If teachers truly worked the days you claim, it would actually be a great deal, but alas, you apply the typical ignorant paradigm to a profession you can’t begin to comprehend. I’ll let your quasi-math, and time-clock mentality reveal your lack of understanding. Please give us some more “facts” to go with these incredible ones you’ve laid out so far. If anything, I’d like to thank Travis for allowing this story and subsequent comments by many to verify what I pretty much knew: Most people in the general public have NO CLUE what teachers do, and how much teachers work. So keep spouting off at the opinion level, it’s very entertaining! As for me, I’ve finished scoring my 6th period’s outlines for their response to literature essays, so I’m going to call it a day! It’s only 11:30 P.M. I look forward to more “words of wisdom” tomorrow!
Yes L.Reynolds, it is getting more lucrative by the minute as all of the hidden perks are exposed. Why hasn’t your union tried to increase your compensation then? Looks like either they aren’t doing their job (you should protest/fire them)or you are lying about staying up until 11:30pm. Knowing how powerful the unions are, I would say the latter is the truth. Answer that question.
Oh, I “can’t begin to comprehend” what you do. Put forth ALL of your compensation you receive with paycheck and Calstrs information so that we can see what you are really being paid. I know it won’t happen because your facade of doing it for the children and the goodness of your heart would crumble. Poor baby, staying up until 11:30pm! Prove it. Why aren’t all the teachers protesting for unpaid overtime then? File a lawsuit for unpaid compensation. Your union has the money for the lawyers so go ahead. You won’t because it’s all a lie. I dare you. Prove it!
Yes John, I was lying you moron! You posted your idiotic “yea Nipsey rant at 11:13 PM last night. My email was sent after that, but before 3/24. Now if you want to come over to my house to verify what I do and when I do it, let me know. Calling me a liar in response to my points is another typical idiotic response and sadly predictable. I can meet you in Fullerton anytime you like and we can discuss this man to moron, err man (sorry Freudian slip there). By the way, teachers contribute to CALSTRS (another myth you know nothing about). You come meet me and I’ll bring my paystub to “prove it”. I seriously doubt you have a sister that’s a teacher either, if you are unaware of how STRS works, or that she would use nothing but scantrons (my bad for believe everyone here was honest). My conscience is clear that I am dedicated to my career and I care about the futures of my students, so keep looking dumber and dumber with each comment.
I meant it when I said I would meet you sir, so you let me know! I’ll bring my pay stub, and we can discuss this face to face.
Please spare us the tears about your meager contributions to the hysterically underfunded CalSTRS pension system.
We already know that the taxpayers kick in most of the money for your retirement and that we are on the hook for the unfunded billions racked up beyond what we already pay.
Post it in PDF and not just the pay stub. Reveal your full compensation to everyone, L.Reynolds. Then tell us how many days you need to set up your classroom. You said 2 days aren’t enough. How many do you need, a week? That’s a perfect example of how bad you are at managing your time.
You’re obviously disturbed because you won’t post the information to back up your false claims, but you want to “discuss this face to face.” Can’t you argue effectively right here and now? Typical public union employee…all insults, no facts.
After I left the Fullerton School District I attended Brea-Olinda High. I had a History teacher there who was very scary. He had a weird photo on his desk of a guy named Tony. I later heard that this teacher went crazy or something he beat his kids and they once found him passed out in the planter at some courthouse. The worst part was that he kept a kid he named “Boy” locked in the back seat of his car wherever he went. Mr. Thompson will you please investigate this guy too.
I once knew a man from Nantucket……..
This is all I learned in English.
Dude, don’t worry about that whole school thing. I know where, after a few weeks at Camp McPension, you can get get a job that only requires a GED, it’s all gravy, and you can retire at 50 with your whole salary. If you fake a trick knee it will be tax-free, too.
The hardest part will be getting over the wall on the obstacle course at Camp McP. And if you can’t make it you just walk around.
Just try to avoid shooting yourself.
LOL!!!!
1. Please let me know who your sister is, so I can avoid putting my child in her room! I bet the environment in there is tantamount to a sterilization room.
2. If students already know it, why am I teaching it in the first place? I work with many English learners that are acquiring language and learning content (here comes the illegals statement, and that they should not be here in the first place argument LAME! There are many second language learners that are here legally…)
3. No professional development? So, we should just ignore new and innovative ways to teach. Does your sister use “Little House on the Prairie” techniques in her classroom? If my task were brewing coffee at 7-11, then I could see that, but I am responsible for 153 students, and their language development.
4. I they could put their essay on a scantron, I’d do it. Again, you think assessment and correction is so simple. Good assessments, assessments that inform teachers as to what students need, take time, especially writing.
5. I don’t do summer school, because I am exhausted by the end of the school year. Before you call me a lightweight, understand that I was in the private sector in the tech industry in sales and marketing. At 36, I decided to go into to teaching after 9/11, because I wanted to do something more meaningful than chase money all of my life. With my education, I made significantly more in my prior position, and while I had little or no vacation, I can say that I work way harder in the shorter amount of time as a teacher than I ever did in my prior career. You can believe that or not, but it is the absolute truth! Every school has a teacher or two that “runs over kids in the parking lot” arriving and leaving school (maybe your sister has some sneakers under her bumper, based on your analysisof teacher time). I can assure you that most teachers work well before and after the bell to support ALL learners in their classes.
Again, your ignorance allows others to see what I know that most people that have never taught have NO CLUE about what teachers have to do.
1. 2 days is enough. How many days do you spend decorating the room L.Reynolds? 5,10,15? Please tell us.
2. Look, stop sobbing about it. You say you are working extra hours without pay? Have your union file a lawsuit for unpaid compensation. Keep track of ALL of your hours worked and submit it to the lawyers in a class-action lawsuit.
3.“Little House on the Prairie” techniques are what we need. We don’t need ”new and innovative ways” that aren’t working. How long have these “new and innovative ways” been used anyway? Please detail what these “new and innovative ways” are and exactly how long we’ve given them to work and what the learning improvement has been, if any? It sounds like this is used to get more pay/less work for teachers without any results to back it up. Have the test scores suddenly improved? Please enlighten us.
4. See answer number 2.
5. Oh please! Throwing in how you are “sacrificing” at these levels of compensation and throwing in 9/11? Give me a break! The above teachers are making over $160,000 in total compensation, per year for 180 days of work. That is called a scandal. What are you making in TOTAL COMPENSATION L.Reynolds?
Of course we have ”NO CLUE” as to why you get paid outrageous sums for less than full-time work. Make us aware of your total hours per year, including all of your excuses. Then post a PDF. Then scan your paycheck, Calstrs statement, health benefits, etc… Let’s see ALL of your TOTAL COMPENSATION. Please black out any personal name/ssn etc…Post that in a PDF too, for the world to see. I know that you won’t do it because the facade would crumble. I’ll be waiting for the PDF’s but I am expecting personal attacks,as a means of distraction from the real scandal of outrageous TOTAL COMPENSATION of public teachers.
When it comes to schedules and work loads, all I can tell you is that at the Thursday events during the spring and summer in the downtown plaza I cant get there from work until 5:30 and there seems to be a lot of teachers that look and act like they have been there a while.
Could be they are using the beer garden as a warm up for all that after hours work. Of course, it could also be they got out of work at 3 and headed over for some sun and suds.
I once read this article about a guy who converted his car to run on air. I was like, no way! But then Detroit bought him out and neither he nor the technology was ever heard from again. Bummer.
If these teachers all work so many extra days, why does the teachers’ union fight so hard for furlough days? Aren’t they already working those extra days for free?
If teachers say that they are underpaid and overworked, they can go to their union and file a class-action lawsuit for non-payment of wages. The union has the money for it.
Teachers have free periods and/or modified days as well as class time. How many teachers ALWAYS teach for the whole period in class anyway? All of my teachers gave in-class assignments at some point and they were doing something at their desks that did not involve speaking(grading papers,etc…). Now some teachers are whining about class size going to 30 students or more. That’s what we always had. They want to do even less for more and pay the union to constantly reduce their work(number of students) and increase their pay. Shameless.
Looking at your level of understanding, it appears you needed a lower class size. Your arrogance is only outdone by your ignorance. Keep crying about something you know nothing about and I’ll keep spending your tax dollars buddy. And I’ll meet you anytime and then we can have a face to face discussion if you are man enough LOL! I highly doubt it. Like I said I’ll bring my pay stub. BTW, the STRS contribution is equivalent to the Soc. Security contribution put in by others, which we do not participate in, but you knew that already right? Do you live in Fullerton John, or just some dude that has nothing better to do with his time than espouse stupidity 24/7? Again, even those might agree with this blog are steering clear of you, because you KNOW NOTHING! If schools ran the way you want them to, they’d be way worse off. And vouchers would be fine with me. I could open my own school and not be strapped by the limitations set by an antiquated system (which is too forward for neanderthals like you), that only measures student achievement at the recall level.
By the way, in case you didn’t realize it, while I am responding to you, I am really talking to everyone else reading this. You are pretty much irrelevant, and I almost feel bad laughing so hard at the lame excuse for arguments you make on here. If you are one of Fullerton’s finest, our fair city has a bigger problem than public education.
And again, your tax dollars (state and federal, seeing as I work in a title one school), are most appreciated!
I knew it. Post the TRUTH of your outrageous compensation L.Reynolds. You can’t do it can you. Dismiss me and be condescending if you wish but your truth is showing.
You said-“Again, even those might agree with this blog are steering clear of you, because you KNOW NOTHING!”
So now you speak for everyone L.Reynolds? You sound like a good dictator to me. Is that how you treat your students L.Reynolds? Once the propaganda runs out, the true face is seen.
I’m waiting for you to back up your claims with PDF’s of total hours worked and scans of all of your compensation. It’ll never happen. You couldn’t produce it if your life depended on it.
L.Reynolds, so you think you pay your fair share for your retirement? Read the posted link, talking about a $500 billion shortfall for Ca. Retirement Pensions. This includes teachers like you. Do you understand simple math, because your pension payments don’t add up. It’s going to hurt when your pension system collapses soon, very soon.
http://www.scpr.org/news/2010/04/05/study-california-pensions-underfunded-500-billion/
Wow. Following this has been hilarious. I have never seen more people who operate at the opinion level in my life. LReynolds, I would stop wasting my time if I were you. These folks have no interest in learning anything – don’t confuse them with the facts. 😉
FSD – I wouldn’t even give him opinion level status… thanks for watching, hope you enjoyed it. I’m done with him… Best of luck to the teachers in your district in dealing with the few that actually read this drivel. I am a resident of Fullerton, but teach somewhere else. Hope things work out for you!
The dialogue from FSD Teacher and, more recently, L. Reynolds is awfully condescending.
The rest of us are wrong because, according to you, we don’t understand. That’s the weakest defense you could possibly make.
As long as teachers act this way, it will not end well for you. The public has had it with your union mentality.
FS – You and I had a decent dialogue, but John here basically attacked my profession and my integrity (calling me a liar and questioning my motives, when he doesn’t even know me.). What would you have me do? But seeing as his words are fine with you, and I am so condescending, I’m finished with this biased blog. Good luck guys, I’m done here. My time and energy can be put up to much better use than this.
FS – Did you look at the link I posted? Did you look into the book I recommended, or checked out a synopsis of the film I mentioned? Just wondering…
Answer one simple question L.Reynolds. How many days do you need to decorate a classroom??
When I said 2 days were sufficient to decorate a classroom for the new school year, you said:
“Please let me know who your sister is, so I can avoid putting my child in her room! I bet the environment in there is tantamount to a sterilization room.”
You knocked my actual time(2 people for 1 day=2 days)
to decorate. How many days does it take for you to do it? Answer the question already! What is it? 5 days? 10 days?
This really is a microcosm of our problem folks. Thanks for letting that truth slip out L.Reynolds.
L. Reynolds, I enjoyed the link you shared. The animation was neat.
Not sure I’m ready to jump aboard the “Divergent Thinking” train just yet. To me, it sounds like a euphemism for problem solving, and even then, it’s flimsy at best.
I could be wrong, or maybe I don’t fully understand, but it gives the impression of being a rocketship for liberal propaganda. It’s as if they want to bring tolerance into the classroom so there’s no such thing as a right or wrong answer.
L.Reynolds, can’t you even answer how long it takes for you to decorate a classroom? You said my 2 days was insufficient. How many days does it take you to do it? 5 days? Two weeks?
You cannot continue because your arguments are indefensible.
This will be my last post on this idiotic site (Fullerton is in a heap of trouble if this is the best you got). John – About setting up the room, I am doing it on my own time, so what is your big issue about? If you must know, I usually do it throughout the week, but not longer than four hours at a time, because I am also planning and meeting with colleagues and parents throughout the week as well. But I am not being paid for it, and I am not complaining about it. I know that it is part of the duties, just like staying late for open house, conferences, or sponsoring clubs (all things I readily do, without compensation, and I do not feel slighted by that).
The reason I am not going to continue is because you are one of the most ignorant and closed minded persons I’ve ever seen anywhere! You accuse me of lying and question my integrity, and you know nothing about me. Well, that tells me much about you, and that’s all I need to know. I’ve offered to meet you face to face and of course, you say nothing about that, but it’s probably for the best that you don’t meet me, and hide behind this pathetic website. You can’t even use your last name, so hey, the proof is in the pudding. I’ll keep doing what I’m doing, and you’ll keep doing whatever you do (which I have a feeling is not very much). But hey, best wishes to ya!
I’m sorry to say this L. Reynolds, but if you’re going to run away from every person who opposes you or your profession, it’s a matter of time before your union disappears and/or you get a 50% pay cut.
People are pissed off, many of them rightfully so. They want answers. When you dodge every piece of criticism, or look down on them, it validates their claims and turns up the hatred against your union and your profession.
Teachers need to be upfront and honest and not self-serving when tough questions are asked. In the private sector, you could never respond this way to the people who pay your salaries, regardless of the way they act toward you.
FSD Teacher, can you tell us how long it takes for you to decorate a classroom for the new school year? L.Reynolds thinks my 2 days is much too insufficient but couldn’t answer how long it takes. Hard question, I know.
How long does it take you?
FSD Teacher, here’s something for you to learn, it’s called reality:
http://www.scpr.org/news/2010/04/05/study-california-pensions-underfunded-500-billion/
Public teacher pensions are going broke, that’s not opinion.
It typically takes me three days to get the classroom physically ready. I know many teachers that take more time, but after this many years I have it down. I think L didn’t answer because he is done with you. We both offered you links, books, and a film to read/watch. But we know you won’t do it, because you have made it abundantly clear that you do not care to learn anything. Sorry if you think I am condescending. I get that reaction from people who think they know it all and have nothing but hate to spew. Which is why I am done as well. Enjoy your opinion-level vitriol. It’s all you’ve got.
You should be done. After all you’ve fallen way behind in your 80 hour work week!
Sorry FSD Teacher, you offered me nothing. You said:
“We both offered you links, books, and a film to read/watch.”
I guess that was someone else. Please reference the post where you offered me anything.
Thank you for answering my question about set-up.
Now, I can recommend the movie,”Waiting for Superman” on how the teachers’ union damages our schools. The same offer stands for you FSD Teacher. Let’s see TOTAL compensation and any additional hours that you haven’t been paid for. That will give us the information we need as to why public teachers deserve their pay. The above teachers are making over $160,000 a year in TOTAL compensation(salary+pension+health benefits), which is outrageous for less than 180 days of total work per year.
Post 105. I saw W4S.
Umm, you were posting a reply to someone else, not me. Check it out. You didn’t offer me anything.
In post #106, you say that posted salaries are pre-furlough, but to be fair, shouldn’t we be talking about TOTAL compensation including lifetime pension and health benefits?
Regarding your Post #106, you said: “I challenge any of you who think we are overpaid to A) become truly educated on the issues surrounding teaching and B) try doing my job for a week. My bet is you would be leaving skid arks as you tore out of the parking lot by lunch.”
For us to be educated on the issue of compensation, we will need all of the compensation information (pension+health benefits,etc…), not just regular salary. Thanks in advance for providing All of your compensation information.
How much should teachers make.
Which are the ‘good’ teachers and which are the ‘bad’ ones. I am not asking about traits, I’m asking about quantifiable measures.
Two simple, one-sentence questions. What could be easier.
I think the market should decide, Nipsey. Let’s give out vouchers to get rid of the status quo of seniority rules and complacency. Let the best teachers and schools flourish and let the bad schools close and the bad teachers become burger flippers.
It’s funny to hear teachers complain that we shouldn’t judge a teacher on students’ test scores. What are we going to judge them on then, how well they understand the material? How do you measure that if not for test scores? How do we measure who won a baseball game? Good players in pro baseball get paid well, while bad players get cut from the team. Bad teachers have to be able to be fired for bad performance and it cannot take 10 years to do it. The only teachers that I ever hear getting fired are the ones having sex with underage students.
John, I think the ‘market’ response is a punt, but I don’t have that long to type right now.
How do we measure the quality of soldiers, by their winning? Then everyone who participated in Vietnam or Korea or were slaughtered at Malmedy – or hell, Iraq, now – were all bad soldiers? Maybe soldiers shouldn’t get purple hearts, since that’s rewarding failure, right?
Here’s the thing about gauging teachers on student performance, which is that unlike private sector managers a teachers don’t get to choose their students. And a teacher, in their few, meager, overpaid hours, is a pretty minor influence on a student compared to overwhelming family and social influences. There are reasons, most of which which must not be spoken, why different groups perform differently (statistically) in school. I have used this example before, go find it if you want: how come certain groups of kids tend to excel and be overrepresented in certain areas of academia, even when these kids are in exactly the same schools as ones who don’t? Why is that?
These are made-up numbers, but I’m trying to illustrate a point: If thirty years ago, 80% of students were socioeconomically middle class and spoke English as a first language, and twenty years ago it was 70%, and ten years ago it was 50%, can you not imagine how this could affect achievement even if the ‘quality’ of teaching remained constant? Can you imagine how this could affect achievement even if the quality of teaching/pedagogy had improved?
Just briefly, about things like ‘value added’, the problem with tracking individual student achievement is that many of the variables change from year to year. Students don’t move up grade levels in blocs, meaning the mix of students in a classroom are never the same year to year. There are countless reasons why this can have a profound effect. I can cite some examples if you want. What if Johnny was happy go lucky last year, and this year mom and dad got a divorce? What if he started hanging out with a bad crowd and they decided school is for chumps. What if mom or dad got a part time job since times are tight, so Johnny has more unsupervised time at home and decides to play Playstation instead of studying? Will Johnny’s academic slump have any bearing on how the teacher was doing? No.
No one disputes that there is such a thing as a good or bad teacher, in probably the same proportions that there are good and bad members of any profession. But if you want to start rewarding merit, you’d better have a defensible way of gauging it.
Nipsey, all I can say is that some analogies are better than others. Comparing teachers and schools to soldiers and war is not a good analogy in my opinion.
What do we grade on if not objective test scores? Ambiguous measurement is like saying we shouldn’t keep score at sports. If teachers shouldn’t be graded by test scores, why should students be then? Let’s come up with another system to show how good a student is. Get rid of GPA and A-F grading and interview the student and try to grade them with some other standard. Colleges would have a tough time trying to assess whom to accept without GPA and SAT scores.
It’s perfect analogy when demonstrating how to distinguish the quality of service from an easily observable outcome. But thank you for objecting on precisely the trivial, nonsensical ground one might expect.
So, may I sum up your second paragraph by saying that you’d rather evaluate teacher performance based upon a measurement which may not have anything to do with actual teacher performance, just because it’s easy? I will. Also, enjoy the wrongful termination lawsuits.
Colleges would also have a hard time evaluating a prospective student by looking at someone else’s grades.
“Value-added” analysis is a statistical method that estimates the effectiveness of a teacher or school by looking at the standardized test scores of students — in this instance, math and English scores on the California Standards Tests. Past scores are used to project each student’s future performance. The difference between the child’s actual and projected results is the estimated “value” that the teacher or school added (or subtracted) during the year.
Do value-added scores tell you everything you need to know about a teacher or school? No. In reviewing a teacher’s performance, administrators may want to consider their classroom observations, the quality of students’ classroom work, instructors’ abilities in subjects other than English and math and many other factors.
Which employees are good and which are bad? That’s called “management” and it’s actually a profession. It turns out that’s what principals are supposed to do too.
Unfortunately the CTA sucked away all of their power over the years. Now they’re just appeasers.
Yes, Anonymous, you hit the nail on the head. It is management’s job to know who is a productive employee and who should be fired. You wouldn’t even have to use something like test scores. In many jobs, there may not be an exact way to measure performance but any good manager knows who’s a good employee and who’s not. Unproductive employees are let go. Unfortunately, the unions have taken away administration’s ability to judge teachers and fire the bad ones. Like I said before, the system is badly broken and teachers won’t admit it.
Talk in circles much?
Who are the good administrators? I thought part of the problem was education is top heavy with (overpaid, unaccountable, any idiot can do it) administrators.
So yeah, they’re the solution. I mean the problem. I mean, uh.. What?
You’re not being logical anymore. How could principals could be top heavy? There’s one per school, right? I also don’t see how being overpaid would mean a principal can’t at least take care of their job’s core function: managing employees.
Wow John. You don’t know anything about blogging, do you? So, when I respond to the group with info, that’s not good enough for you? You’d like an engraved invitation? That’s a great excuse not to read or learn anything. Good luck with that.
FSD Teacher, first off did you read every single post on here and take that every answer is addressed to you personally? You specifically said that you told me something when you addressed your answer to someone else. Let me guess, your response had my name in it but it was specifically meant for everybody? Do not specify by name if you don’t mean it. Don’t say you told me something, say you mentioned it in a previous post. We need more clarity out of our teachers.
Umm, I’m still waiting on your total compensation information so that we can assess whether you are worth your pay. Can you get it to us soon?
“Teachers need to be upfront and honest and not self-serving when tough questions are asked. In the private sector, you could never respond this way to the people who pay your salaries, regardless of the way they act toward you.”
Yeah that’s interesting, except that as you know, teachers make tons of money (for very little work, bonus!) so they also pay more taxes than you do which means a teacher is actually contributing more to paying for education than you are, so they can probably say anything to you they want. It’s good to be the king.
Hi Travis. Who’s not being logical, she didn’t use the term ‘principal’ once, just management and administration.
Who are the good principals?
Nipsey, tell us please how you would specifically judge actual teacher performance.You don’t want to use grades because that’s like measuring who won a war, in your analogy. Please tell us how you would measure actual teacher performance not using grades.
Teachers are given evaluations now but they are almost meaningless. Tenure allows bad teachers to remain. Why should a principal give a bad evaluation to a teacher and have a negative relationship, when they know the teacher will not be removed? The unions let this happen and the unions will let good, new teachers go while keeping older, ineffective teachers. Until this practice is abolished, nothing will change. What would you do about this?
Private schools are the way to go. Let parents choose where they want their children to go. To pay the above teachers and many like them $160,000+ of total (current and deferred) compensation for 182 days of work is another reason why our schools are so bad. Have you ever eaten at a government restaurant that can’t get rid of workers or don’t care what they serve as ‘food’ because they have a monopoly? I have done this while traveling and it was like throwing money away. Sadly, it sounds like our present school system.
Please tell us your specific solution.
I don’t know a solution, no one does. At least knowing what won’t work is a step in the right direction since you don’t waste a lot of time trying to implement something which doesn’t accomplish what you set out to do. Now, I should conditionalize that, because what I think you want to do is not specifically about education, per se; It is about firing some teachers and paying teachers who don’t get fired, less, because you’re mad about the money. There are many ways to accomplish this which are even easier than relying on standardized test scores to judge teacher ability. Rolling dice, for example.
“You don’t want to use grades because that’s like measuring who won a war, in your analogy.”
No, it’s easy to judge who won the war, it can be hard to say if the losers failed because of bad soldiering. No wonder you didn’t like my analogy, you don’t understand it.
Let me put it in sports terms since you like those: imagine a team without any control over who’s a player. No talent scouts, no draft picks, no tryouts, or Then you blame the coach because his random allocation of players don’t make the playoffs? That’s what I’m talking about.
There is one magic thing about private schools – and this is just between you and me because you can’t say stuff like this, it makes people feel bad. It’s not that the teachers are better, they aren’t. It’s not the curriculum or some amazingly innovative teaching methods (which we all know are nonsense because teacher professional development, attending conferences, and graduate study are worthless – it’s true, someone internet person said so). Those are all great, but they’re almost trivial in importance. The magic is that private schools get to select their students.
And one very brief thing about parents choosing; kids do as well as they do, or not, mostly because of the parents and home environment. Parents who really care are already deeply involved in their kids education, and those kids aren’t the ones with the achievement problems.
Nipsey, why should I be expected to understand your analogy, saying:
“Maybe soldiers shouldn’t get purple hearts, since that’s rewarding failure, right?” Obviously,you don’t even know why the Purple Heart is given. It is given to a soldier for wounds received during battle. It is not given to reward failure. If you consider getting wounded a failure, then I will be happy to admit that I cannot understand your analogy. Your analogy is flawed because the only winners currently in our educational system are the public teachers and administrators who are receiving outrageous compensation for what they do. The above teachers and many like them are receiving around $900 per day of total compensation to show up. It doesn’t matter whether they teach well or not, what matters is their seniority. It is of no consequence whether the students do well or fail. The teachers, through their union tell us what’s important: tenure, high pay, unaccountability, seniority, high pension and health care for life.
A better analogy involving war would be that war has been declared on our students’ future(and our country),by the teachers’ unions and they (teachers) have already won. With tenure, outrageous pay, unaccountability, etc… how can they lose? The war is over before it starts.
Nipsey, regarding a solution to our current system,you said:
“I don’t know a solution, no one does. At least knowing what won’t work is a step in the right direction since you don’t waste a lot of time trying to implement something which doesn’t accomplish what you set out to do.”
Obviously, what we have now does not work but we are continuing to waste untold billions on it year after year. It is better to try something new rather than continue down a path of failure(except for the teachers). You said no one has a solution but that is your opinion. People have solutions, they do exist, but our hands are tied by the teachers and their unions.
Nipsey, students and parents don’t get to choose their teachers just like teachers don’t get to choose their students. You didn’t mention that in your analogy.
Private schools cannot select their students as freely as you say, however, if a student is causing major problems, they can get rid of that student (a great thing) but they have to pay bills too. If they don’t have enough students, they must retain students that they would otherwise not keep. They can get rid of the worst students, which is great because those students can disrupt the rest of the class from moving forward. Private schools also have an advantage of being able to get rid of bad teachers.
Parents who send their children to private school have to pay for it. Many parents cannot afford to do that. Since we don’t have vouchers, the parents who cannot afford private school must take what they are given with their public school. Choice and competition will always be better than no choice and no competition. Do you like to choose what you buy? It’s time for vouchers.
I like where this is going. Vouchers please, at least in my lifetime!
speech
Be opaque on your own time. Let’s move on.
“Nipsey, students and parents don’t get to choose their teachers just like teachers don’t get to choose their students. You didn’t mention that in your analogy.”
I also didn’t mention leprechauns. There is no comparison. You might be in the Raymond boundary but instead you want your kid to go to Rolling Hills or Laguna Road or Beechwood. It takes one form and a modicum of effort. But of course this whole discussion is a bit of a dodge because the point is that when parents are this involved, their kids already tend to do well whatever school they’re at.
“Private schools cannot select their students as freely as you say”
That’s interesting, how ‘freely’ did I ‘say’ they could select students?
platitudes
Nipsey, you make it sound so easy to “choose” schools but you know it is not. You said:
“It takes one form and a modicum of effort.”
The REAL choice is left out. The real choice is vouchers, not public schools and their continuously lowered standards. We are failing compared to other countries. I wonder what other country pays their teachers as well as we do for as little instruction and if they have social promotion too. What other country would pay $160,000+ per year of compensation for 182 days of showing up, whether they are effective or not?
Throw in leprechauns if you want. It adds to your fantasy that nothing can be done, as you said: “I don’t know a solution, no one does.” You skip over that parents and students don’t have a real choice regarding their teachers. Vouchers permit parents who cannot afford private schools a chance to choose a successful school for their child. Vouchers will solve the problem and provide true choice.
John, I give you credit for at least putting forth a proposal, which is a lot harder than simply saying ‘this is insane’ or ‘keep the good ones get rid of the bad ones’ and nothing else. That said, you’re still wrong.
Recently someone was complaining about remedial classes at CSUF and claiming it was in indictment of our K-12 school system that entering students into a university were of such poor academic quality. It is an indictment, to be sure, but not for the reasons he thought. The poor academic quality of incoming CSUF classes is not because there are no good students, but because of lowered admissions standards which introduce a lot of less capable students into the mix. Even if the professors and curricula were the same or even better than ever, and they are, aggregate student performance plummets. Thus, the emergence of increasing numbers of remedial classes while in decades past, there would be none – because there were no remedial-caliber students.
If you think college is advanced education for academically advanced students, and lowering admissions thresholds to allow virtually everyone the opportunity to attend debases the value, and perceived value, of a university education, then this is a problem which is easily fixed by raising admissions standards and dismantling remedial programs at CSU. Done and done.
it is not so simple in primary schools, since they are legally obligated to educate every kid. And so they do, and as the kids are changing, so the academic performance of many schools goes down.
Vouchers are not the deus ex machina. Vouchers have been documented to death, no need or opportunity to really rehash it here. Even gold plated vouchers with sprinkles on top will not solve the real problem, bea it won’t even address it. How do you make underperforming students go away? A miracle? Ritalin? No. You can’t.
Good performing schools are ones where lots of good performing kids go. The students do not excel because of the school, the school excels because of the students who go there. Students are not underperforming because of schools. It’s the other way around.
You, and if it makes you feel any better, most people, are as wrong about the problem as you would be if you said that blood spatters caused gunshot wounds.
It is this way, not some other way.
Nipsey, vouchers have been documented to death? Please provide a link. I wonder who did the documenting. Our current schools don’t want vouchers because they say it will provide less money for existing schools. Protecting our failing schools should not be our concern but rather improving the education of our students. If our current schools are so good, they have nothing to fear from vouchers.
Let’s not let the better students suffer with slower or disruptive students. Let’s get them to better classrooms using vouchers. Let’s get the problem students to specialized schools and get the focus on bad parents as well. Currently, social promotion lets bad parents off the hook. Let’s let the market get the best teachers for our children, instead of having tenured teachers get outrageous pay whether they are good or bad.
Our measurement must not be how many students get a diploma but how well our test scores are versus the rest of the world’s students. We can’t just keep on lowering standards to fool ourselves into thinking that our educational system is working. It is broken. No public teachers are worth $900 a day in compensation (like the teachers in this article) but apparently they think they are worth it and more. Our schools are not only broken but bankrupt too.
Ok John, keep pretending.
For you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=school+vouchers
I’m not the one pretending, Nipsey. I’m also not the one saying:
“I don’t know a solution, no one does.”
I’m also not the one throwing leprechauns into a serious
conversation. Your link just sent me to Google’s website with “school” and “vouchers” put in the search bar. I did search myself and found this great story about how wonderful vouchers are in Sweden. Sweden went to vouchers after suffering quality problems in education. It is a successful program that allows all Swedish parents to choose the school that they prefer. Here’s the link:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/10/school-vouchers-swedens-free-market-success-story/
Keep dreaming of leprechauns if you want but our educational system needs to move on to real solutions, including vouchers.
“Your link just sent me to Google’s website with “school” and “vouchers” put in the search bar.”
Gee really? Thank you Mr. Obvious.
Nipsey, I wanted to point out your laziness in my reply. I was pointing out that you didn’t even link to a specific article when I asked you to back up your claim. It speaks volumes that you cannot adequately respond to vouchers but you choose to talk about leprechauns and make statements like:
“I don’t know a solution, no one does.”
Vouchers are a big part of the solution. Educate yourself.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/10/school-vouchers-swedens-free-market-success-story/
The “Burro Generation” needs to be recognized.
They are the taxed single celled seed of your scrotum, they are the taxed preschoolers, they are the taxed teens even before they earn any income.
The pensioners State, local, teachers and politicians could give a rats as* when all these young people who have no idea how screwed they are when they retire (or can)
They are the “Burro generations” carrying a massive tax load before they can vote.
We have Wilderness Conservation for flora and fauna, why do we not treat our youth as an endangered species and give them the same respect by not draining them financially.
Yeah, all you teachers who agree with this fiscal abuse of our youth as justifiable and to make matters worse when you have disagreements with a contract you all use these very same students and brainwash them to protest on your behalf but will you show up in 20-30 years to pick up the pieces for all the young people who are burdened like burros with the extreme tax debt you all have
greedily dumped on them?
My concern is for the youth, their future, I know I will be fine, but they will pay the price for everyone trying to grab a piece of the pie of the day.
Everyone knows that pension funds are a ponzi scheme, why delude yourself? The lack of funds speaks volumes, numbers do not lie, politicians and union officials do.
Both need to clean house personally/ethically our State and Federal budget.
The only way we will survive and leave our State to our youth with a clean bill of health is if all of our politicians and unions officials got their head out of their as*.
You may mandate budgets but in the long run nothing will work unless they attack it as if they
are going to war to save our children’s future, to approach everything ( fiscal and political responsibility) as if their lives depended on it, which it actually does!
And to think, Jerry Brown and all the blood sucking entitled politicians/union jerks wants everyone to vote or agree with him that their is a need to increase taxes.