We Get Mail
Here’s a little message we got at FFFF Central Ops today. This seems to be the talking point of law enforcement trolls in the Kelly Thomas matter. Blame dear old Dad for neglect, and now for wanting to cash in. This writer actually tries (without success) to redeem his/her ignorance and appalling spelling and grammar by admitting that the cops who murdered Kelly should be punished (well Hell, that’s mighty big of ya).
Name:
Email:
Privacy: You may publish this, but protect my identity
Subject: mr thomas’s alterior motives
so kelly thomas’s father threw kelly out of the house, put him on the street, and put him in an arm bar to force him onto a psych unit. hiis son was starving and homeless for years, but now all of a sudden mr thomas cares about him? he just wants millions out of this..yes the officiers should go to jail but mr thomas put his son out there in those volatiile condiitons simply because hiis son did not want to take his meds…if mr thomas cared about kelly’s wellbeing so much he would not put him on the streets you would think that that would be more dangerous for someone’s health than being off a drug
Of course we have been all over this ground before and if you believe that Kelly’s parents had the legal or practical ability to restrain their boy and force him to take medication you are a damned fool. In any case this simple, inescapable, unavoidable truth remains: if Ramos, Wolfe, Cicinelli, Blatney and Klein had not killed him, Kelly Thomas would be be alive today.
As far as a big payout is concerned, I’m wondering if advertising Ron Thomas’ greed is going to be the tact taken by the Three Recalled RINOs and their misbegotten backers, in an attempt to deflect criticism for their own dismal failures, before and after the murder.
So far the Three Tree Trunks have adamantly refused to even admit that there is a Culture of Corruption that runs through the police department – a culture created by McKinley’s incompetence (or worse) and nurtured by Jones and Bankhead’s sleepy and grumpy indifference. So why not cast about for a somebody else to blame?
“Alterior motives?”
Hoo boy. We got a live one on the line.
Who is Officer Klein?
GED QED.
By the way, you may be right about the anti-recall people looking for ways to deflect attention to the real culprits (them). That Ackerman is a really low individual. None of them have a shred of honor.
Ackerman’s also a Whino!
Aside from his or her small-brained spelling (probably a her) being homeless has only become a volatile condition because of the police that killed Kelly Thomas. We have no idea how many other homeless people have been beaten up or killed by police. These brazen imbeciles decided to do it in full view of the public and a high-res camera. For Kelly, homelessness was a choice and not something to fear. The last thing he ever thought of was that he would be tortured and murdered by cops.
Why I’m rambling about this? I’m preaching to the choir. I guess I’m simply trying to get some logic through Ms. Alteriors rotten coconut.
BTW…Three Tree Trunks…lol
This tactic is played out. Does it matter if the Thomas family did or did not do ______?<– fill in the blank. No it doesn't, because this is not about what the Thomas family did or did not do, this is about our police officers murdering him for no reason. Completely bogus argument, and at this point a broken record. Either address it head on with a real argument or STFU. See ya on Dec. 16th at the courthouse.
…nice adding the isp addy too lol.
I never get to go to Central Ops.
lol Chris.
When you have had actual real life experience dealing with excellent and dedicated policemen and then also have experience or encounter thuggish criminal policemen, the difference is stark and even life changing or life threatening.
And the difference is called LEADERSHIP in any and every military type organization.
The problem of encountering and handling the full range of the human condition or experience, as a person in authority and responsibility, takes real talent and intelligence and skill and sound moral character.
Police work is really an honorable public service.
Unfortunately it can be polluted and corrupted and destroyed by thuggish Unions of criminals covering for one another or willingly “looking the other way” in order to keep hold of the tremendous over compensation for which so many evidently sell their souls.
We need to RECALL the horrid phony (i.e. Pat McKinley) “leader” who is directly responsible for the terrible conditon of our Fullerton Police Department that caused and perpetrated the Kelly Thomas tragedy
We need to THROW OUT all of the government workers UNIONS from our City.
We need to RECALL the two other city councilmen who were complicit in all the cover ups which allowed this long process of corruption to occur in our city (i.e. Bankhead and Jones – as well as their big sponsor, Ed Royce).
We need to support the many honest and excellent members of our community who work (without government pay checks) to make our city an excellent place to live.
Well, you make a good point. It’s sort of like getting the same bill twice when you pay the exorbitant LE pay and benefits and then end up with a gang of thieves, goons, pickpockets, perverts and killers.
It’s really kind of funny if you’re into sick humor.
Yeah, funny in the same way someone in a leper colony says “Gimme me a hand, will ya?” The humor slides over the sick reality, just like what happens in this blog.
The genuine humor, imo, is when the clerk of the court says “Guilty” and FPD spokesholes have to defend themselves.
Just wait until trial. You will see how much the family is forced to testify over and over. It will not be pretty. They will be drilled over and over, day after day, on how dangerous he was, how they couldn’t ever control him, how they gave up, and how they got a restraining order against him.
You talked about tactics, and you will see them all before this is over. Is that good or bad? Who knows. Like you said the trial will be about the death but to get there it will be a long, hard fought trial.
Yes normally you and your pals would have a field day making poor, skinny little Kelly Thomas seem like The Incredible Hulk on pcp. Not going to work this time. There’s a video!
Right. When he thought nobody would give a shit, Goodlie tried to make it seem like some sort of apocalyptic struggle. Jesus H., bones were broken!!!!
I think the video will be very valuable to both sides.
Ramos was really in fear of Kelly when he put on the gloves and told Kelly…”these are the hands that are about to fuck you up”. I see a reasonable chance some of the bs you raise will be excluded…its prejudicial effect would outweigh any probative value.
The only thing the video is going to show is Kelly Thomas desperately fighting for his life, and the Fullerton cops desperately trying to take it. I can’t wait to hear how the defense lawyers try to spin that.
You are correct in that it will get ugly, but I believe that in this particular case the defense really has nothing. We shall see.
@Rain: Well written response.
I’m not sure I get your point…The “family” is NOT on trial.
Whether they “gave up” on Kelly or not does not matter to me.
That would only make me as a juror want to award them MORE because as a (parent) I would think IF that was the case (they gave up) then their pain (in my eyes) would have to be next to unbearable…to lose a son they had all but lost already…to lose him like that, unspeakable pain but again that’s me talking…
I have only seen ONE video and Kelly was crying out OVER and OVER again for his dad.
Words his dad will no doubt NEVER be able to stop hearing….I know I STILL cannot get it out of my own mind and it’s been over 4 months now…..I STILL hear it ….
STILL feel for the family….beyond words.
I’ve NEVER been much of a activist, never held a sign up EVER….but I made the drive down to Fullerton to visit the memorial and bring flowers and honk my horn on this one…..these days I just hope and pray for jury duty.
The family isn’t on trial but they will all be a huge part of it, even grandma.
The focus will be on his violent past. Even people here said the cops should have known Kelly, so if they did they had knowledge of his violent past incidents. They will use the family to show he had a violent, Uncontrollable past and that will lead into the incident.
It’s part of trials. People not on trial are put on trial.
I hear you, I am not dense, I get what you are saying………
but RI this is beyond OUTRAGEOUS, to me anyway.
Frankly, after hearing the video and his pleading
🙁 🙁 🙁
I would probably
feel sorry for Ted Bundy if he went like that….
pleading for God,
his dad,
and screaming over and again.
I personally do not think any amount of
explaining or talking about his “violent” past
will cause me to see
that the way he died was his fault…
if I were put on trial and I was his grandmother I would probably break down in tears if you asked me about my dead grandson’s painful memories…
as a juror this would backfire big time if I saw the grandmother or any family member suffer EVEN MORE…the attorneys need to think about THAT
before they put this family through anymore suffering.
Understood. I think the jury won’t know much about this case at all so what they learn will be day by day as the trial moves forward.
Violence or past violence is going to play out in a big way in this trial. If you think the video is going to show him running, then laying down and givin up, you aren’t being realistic. It’s not as cut and dry as people think. Trial will show that.
HOW can they justify what happened to him once he was down?…………………
from the bus stop video (all I have seen) he was down, right?………..
why they did not just cuff him and call it a day (like I think the observer said) is the part that I think will be the 20 million dollar question……….
In my opinion everything else is just not “as”
relevant when looking at the fact Kelly died because of that encounter with professionals who are
supposed to be well trained.
I still do not get how you connect the dots and make this Kelly’s fault.
I think the trial is a uphill battle, or more like climbing mount Everest…
I have to go back to the video, if I have not been able to forget after all these months and I do not think of myself as a emotional person than
what do you think the jury is going to feel when they see it?
I’m not justifying anything. I just said there is more to it.
Key is you haven’t seen the video. You are assuming what is on it.
“there is more to it.”
No, there isn’t. It was a murder.
Wow, anon took over for me lol. What I have always stood by, thank you for putting it so well.
December 16th is the pre-trial, and hopefully the DA’s office won’t let the defense draw it out any longer because the prosecution has provided all of their discovery well before the last continuance on Nov. 4th.
Truth be told, it is the whole system that is pooched; if I did that to anyone I’d be in jail already…but I digress.
The only violent past that will be relevant is that of the FPD thugs that killed Kelly Thomas. And guess which people not on trial are going to be put on trial? FPD LEADERSHIP, which, according to your statements on this blog, includes YOU.
We’ll be watching to see how your cross-examination compares to your bravado on here.
Reality Is, , you’re wrong…….they won’t have the family testify or be drilled over and over about how dangerous Kelly was….because being familiar with Kelly, they will then have to explain why Wolfe walked away (out of earshot) and left Ramos alone to deal with him if he was so dangerous. If Ramos testifys he was aware Kelly might easily explode or become irrational, he will have to explain why he goaded him over and over about putting his hands behind his back (the DA says the video shows Kelly having cognitive issues with the instructions), , and then putting his fists in his face after slowing putting on his gloves and threatening him. That’s not something you do with an ‘explosive’ individual or one dangerous enough to attack you.
The only thing Kelly did was try to run, , and the DA said he had a LEGAL right to do so because of those threats and the video shows him to be a passive individual.
The family won’t be fighting hard, , it will be the defendants fighting long and hard as they scramble to try and explain their actions and threats that were unwarranted.
It will not be pretty at the trial for Ramos and Cincinelli to try and explain their UNCALLED FOR beating of a disabled and unarmed man.
We will agree to disagree. 🙂
OK, , Fair enough…… But, I will bet you that Ron Thomas and family will be there to answer all questions, , even if they have to crawl in to do so. It was bad enough what happened to Kelly, , but all the potshots that have been thrown at the family for damage control are inexcusable, , they are victims and weren’t even there that night and I don’t think there is anything that will stop them from seeking justice for Kelly.
Agreed.
This is exactly the approach they are taking.
Everyone of the 3BMs and FPD backers sick in the head to justify Kellys brutal public murder in this way.
Kelly did not deserve the beating he got then and his family doesn’t deserve it now.
Lawsuits and trials are usually lose lose for everyone. It will be in this case too. The $20 million should make up for the riveting testimony he will have to give.
Screw, the 20 million. It is very clear that the FPD, thinks it’s OK to be unethical. It is quite clear that they prey on the weak, in gangs. You have not referenced all the other unethical things that the FPD has done. You only talk about the KT issue. What about all the other issues? You have not addressed all the problems. If I was a FPD, right now, my resume would be out there looking for another job. “If anyone would look at it”. And that is going hard for other Cities, States to look at. OH! that’s right you have a union. You people would never make it in the private world. Too unethical…..
I think after Gennaco and an outside Chief, FPD will be fine in the future. I think all cops with less than 5 years on will leave. The others will stay. FPD will do just fine.
FPD will do just fine when the thieves, crooks, goons, liars, murderers and abettors ARE WEEDED OUT.
I guess that means starting from scratch will a civilian oversight that isn’t composed of fat, senile gasbags.
Sounds simple. Reality is the FPD interior wiill barely change at all.
As I said to that inferior RI in a previous post, “your timecard is going to be punched soon.”
Just so I’m clear, this is not a threat on anyone’s life. It’s a statement of fact that your career as you know it is coming to an end. You obviously can’t see past your nose so I’ll spell it out for you:
Get ready for a big surprise! 😈
As I’ve said many times, your perception of reality is blind. You think the world is going to be turned upside down when in fact, it will barely change. You notice how no one talks about the Kelly case much anymore? if you walk around and ask people, most barely know anything about it. Recall? If you ask people they will tell you the reality. Oh, that’s that group trying to get the people they hate out? If you don’t open your eyes to reality soon, you are going to be in for a huge disappointment. I don’t say anything to piss you off or personal, I just say it how it is, and how it will be. 🙂
On this we will never agree, but time will prove which of is is right.
“You notice how no one talks about the Kelly case much anymore?”
You should understand that what you’re actually saying is ‘no one talks to ME about the Kelly case much anymore.’ As more information drips out ahead of the trial it increasingly paints a picture of FPD as out-of-control. It’s no wonder people aren’t talking to you about it, they’re probably afraid you’ll beat them to death with a taser if they mention the subject.
“[I]f you walk around and ask people, most barely know anything about it.”
I can only imagine their strangled scream as you walk around asking people if they know anything about Kelly Thomas’ murder, standing in your FPD uniform. You didn’t say anything about them running away clutching their purse, but I imagine the women are nearly hysterical as they flee you. You should know that FPD cops are only a level or two above The Night Stalker. Limit your conversations to bake sales and things should go smoothly.
“Recall? If you ask people they will tell you the reality. Oh, that’s that group trying to get the people they hate out?”
And this is a perfect example of why the recall is going to sail right through the process. Not only are you blind to the outrage of what’s been done to Kelly Thomas, you’re clueless to the plight of people who are saddled with you and your cronies pension debt, among other things.
“If you don’t open your eyes to reality soon, you are going to be in for a huge disappointment.”
Actually, I have eyes that see many things that disappoint me. I can’t make someone see what I see, but I can give subtle clues, like “How long can you hold your breath?”
“I don’t say anything to piss you off or personal, I just say it how it is, and how it will be.”
Okay, so I’m hypersensitive to bullshit. Been a problem all my life. I’ll try not to react too strongly, but I do find our little tete a tete stimulating, if only to mock you. But your dogged refusal to acknowledge the brutality of what happened to Kelly Thomas deflates your credibility every time it starts to gain just a little traction. How it’s going to be is going to be a lot different from what, apparently, you think it’s going to be. In my opinion, of course.
That makes me feel so much better. We get to keep the rejects. The ones that have no future, and could not find another job if they wanted too. I guess that means we get to keep fat boy with a mouth.
Even the young guys that stay will be young cops that couldn’t get picked up anywhere else. The older guys would never leave. Leaving now gets you into another retirement package so leaving is a huge negative even with the current status of FPD. Yea fat boy will probably get promoted to LT soon. He runs the detective bureau now.
The old guys might have to join the real world. There are RIF’s going on all over. The old ones might be next to leave. We get the young ones cheaper with less benefits….
Impossible. Can’t just push em out. You can hope though.
Ever notice how Reality Is always has to have the last word? It’s another expression of how cops always want to control things, even conversations.
“Even the young guys that stay will be young cops that couldn’t get picked up anywhere else.”
Fullerton, If this declaration by LE doesn’t light a fire under you to make some serious changes in policy at the FPD, boy oh boy, NOTHING will!!!!
That is one sad and pathetic post.
Sometimes the truth is sad.
Why would any young cop want to have a career in Fullerton at this point in time? Why not leave to any other city in California?
This has nothing to do with FPD policy by the way.
WHY can’t they get picked up anywhere else?
Care to elaborate?
Wrong Guy, why do you think the emailer’s spelling errors meant they were probably female?
Just curious.
You should probably….keep those thoughts to yourself…Don’t piss off the right brains. Does it matter Sherlock?
Thank god the truth about Sgt.Kiein is comming to light. When the video is released the true brutality of this man will be seen for what he is. Thank you ffff once again spot on!
Who is Sergeant KLEIN?
…I think that it’s interesting/suspicious that the letter writer mis-spells “hiis” twice, and then spells “his” correctly at the end of the letter.
Exactly, FL. The letter wasn’t written by LE, it’s written by someone trying to make 4F THINK it was written by LE. It’s a common ploy of crooks and scoundrels to try to throw off their pursuers by striking out on a false trail and then doubling back. That is what’s happening here.
The other thing that happens is an actual LEO will try to take credit for the bogus letter by imitating the spelling mistakes. Be alert.
Cackle.
Do you think you would ever be able to have confidence in yours or any police department? Honestly?
You just give that vibe that you are anti police and will never have confidence in any police department or officer no matter what.
Nothing wrong with that but if you admit that, it would make your position make that much more sense.
Reality Is, up until the point I was jailed in 2005 by a crooked cop from Montebello PD on a citizen’s arrest that the cop coaxed the citizen to make because he, the cop, didn’t have probable cause – I respected cops. I committed no crime, but the asshole wanted to make a point because I jumped his case for blaming me for something in which I was the victim, not the perpetrator. Sitting in LA County jail over the weekend I got to know a whole lot about how cops game the system, including how they harass people into breaking a law so they can then arrest them. The DA refused to file charges, but the damage was done. And the asshole continued to try to provoke me into a crime because I told them I was going to sue the bejeezus out of the department.
I realize there are good cops and there are bad cops. But good cops stand in silence while bad cops trample citizens’ rights at best, or murder them at worst.
The vibe I give to cops in general is directly related to the vibe they give to me. Now I don’t give ANY cop the assumption that they will follow the rules of law. I have to be successful in my assumption 100% of the time, a bad cop only has to be successful in his crime 1 time, as far as I’m concerned.
I’m not anti police, I’m anti crooked cop. I still admire the police’ bravery and the self-sacrifice that makes its way into the media. But I am a realist, and that means I know the uniform is hiding what lies beneath. Just ask Ron Thomas about that.
It’s too bad you’re saddled with a department that is unquestionably one of the most corrupt since Al Capone ran Chicago. You’re bright enough to see what’s going on around you. I guess to be fair you’re talking in a public forum, so if we were ever to have a private conversation I’m sure we could both say things that can’t be said on a blog.
I really don’t wish you are any cop ill will, but on the other hand I still have a lot of bile left over from having my career ruined by a Montebello 1st class asshole named Officer Ryan.
Didn’t mean to ramble.
Merry fucking christmas!
Makes sense. I figured it had to do with something along those lines.
Back at ya. 🙂
CackleFoos, thank you so much for writing this post. You have put into words EXACTLY how I feel.
CackleFoos stated, “I realize there are good cops and there are bad cops. But good cops stand in silence while bad cops trample citizens’ rights at best, or murder them at worst.
The vibe I give to cops in general is directly related to the vibe they give to me. Now I don’t give ANY cop the assumption that they will follow the rules of law. I have to be successful in my assumption 100% of the time, a bad cop only has to be successful in his crime 1 time, as far as I’m concerned.
I’m not anti police, I’m anti crooked cop. I still admire the police’ bravery and the self-sacrifice that makes its way into the media. But I am a realist, and that means I know the uniform is hiding what lies beneath. Just ask Ron Thomas about that.”
My own trust of LE has been permanently and irreparably damaged by the brutal, heartless murder of Kelly Thomas, and by countless other similar incidents. And, by the fact that the arrogant, self-serving, blue boys all cover for each other, and make endless excuses.
LE has lost my respect and trust, and they will have to earn it back, one cop at a time, one policy change at a time, and by actually protecting and serving the public- instead of murdering them.
So far, R.I. hasn’t earned himself any brownie points. Zip for his P.R. efforts. But, I’m sure R.I. doesn’t mind at all; after all, he is highly paid to blog, with lots of overtime and donuts.
I just say it how it is. Try to give you guys an idea how how things are done and the reasons why. There are reasons, laws, policies, directives behind everything that is done. It would be great to change everything to your way of doing things tomorrow, but that won’t happen.
One thing is for sure: the complacent, apologist cops like yourself,-who are just fine with the status quo, certainly won’t make positive changes come around any faster.
RI,
Are you proud?
You post over and over again with the same old mantra…basically, that’s the way it is folks and it will never change…..
Your pension won’t change, the way things are done won’t change….nothing will change.
You will tell people to try and change things but then you don’t seem to believe things can change so why do you even suggest something that you seem to believe will never happen?
Do you enjoy seeing people sweat on the treadmill of hopelessness that you seem resigned to as long as you get a check?
Or are you just trying to provoke people?
What is it, why are you even here posting?
What are you trying to accomplish?
I read posts from others that are really revealing and then I see your responses.
If you are not willing to have a moral backbone and be a catalyst for change…fight for good; even if you don’t think it will ever happen then what good are you to the uniform, why did you even put on a uniform to begin with?
What was it that made it appealing to you?
Really, I want to know…WHY?
What are you trying to accomplish by your posts here?
Are you for change on a personal level?
If so, what are YOU doing about it?
What do you suggest those who want things to change do?
Again, are you proud?
Thank you Anonymous.
I agree that cops will probably always be cops with all the attendant us vs. them, we are above the law mentality. What might change is how the non-criminal element of society view and deal with cops. At that point they ought to be afraid, because their tendency to view everyone as hostile will be justified. And then fun begins.
sounds like that idiot, Jaynbonds, who trolled on here with the same moronic ramblings and the same bad grammer-always with the same assine whine of “if Ron Thomas just hadnt of let this 40 year old schitzophrenic man out of the house…” and “Ron is just interested in getting the money-because hes greedy”
just shoot me.
Im so glad I advised Ron aloooong time ago to not read the comments in this blog, I hope he never has
Yes the family issue has been covered again and again and again. It has been established that that there is little that a family can legally do to control a family member who needs mental help but is not immediately a danger to himself or another.
In the criminal case, the family issues will have no bearing. Police are not allowed to kill a man because ther family was not there. In the civil case, it will be disected for days upon days in court. But it will have little effect. It has alreadey been established that the worst thing that Kelly’s parents did was get divorced, which is common to nearly 50% of all couples. It has also been established that the Thomas’ did care and did do what the law would allow them to do to continue to care for Kelly.
And they are lions in defending Kelly after his death.
Let the defense continue to mount a desperation defense. It will be finally seen in court as desperation.
Every family member will be testifying in the criminal phase for days or hours. To think otherwise is ludicrous. All focused on his prior violence.
Only if the judge sees pertinence. The cops invovled would have to know Kelly’s prior history to the point of justifying their actions. Then their prior knowledge of Kelly could also be used to impune and criminalize their actions.
We will know within a year.
The testimony of the Cicinelli and Ramos family members will be far more compelling than anything the Thomas family can provide.
You keep trying to spin it so Kelly Thomas is on trial. Wrong. The testimony is going to center on the actions of the murderers, not the victim.
You’re not very bright, are you?
As I said, sit back and watch it play out. You can spin it however you want, it’s not as cut and dry as you think. Just like the fight isn’t as cut and dry as you think. You will see that on the video. It was a fight from both ends. It will be up to the jury to decide who did wrong. I’ve said all along, if someone did wrong, they will be punished. That’s up to the jury.
RI, You will see that on the video”. Have you seen the video?
Steve, I have been saying consistently that there was a plan to at least brutalize Kelly Thomas. I believe that it will come out at trial that a lot of cops were aware of Kelly Thomas. Whether or not he had violent propensities is irrelevant, and thus the family members’ testimony should be excluded. What is relevant, is what various police officers believed, before, during, and after the radio calls for response and help.
Tony Rackaukas knows all this, I believe, and thus it is apparent that he has chosen purposefully to not prosecute a large number of Fullerton police, even though the law as applied to Tony R’s factual findings make out probable cause for charging, as a matter of law. Thus, widespread prior knowledge about Kelly Thomas will serve to exculpate the police, such as Officer Ramos — as it should, I tend to think — but the facts will come out too late, in order to “snag” enough complicit officials, so that the trail to the Mastermind can be followed.
Steve, I disagree a little with your statement that divorce is all that went wrong. Follow God’s law: divorce followed by remarriage is sin. Remarriage can, from a hermeneutic standpoint, be interpreted in the Jehovah’s Witnesses manner: a state ceremony is not required. So, if someone ahem, ahem after a divorce, it is effectively “marriage after divorce”, and hence adultery. And I believe that the Mastermind is an adulterer; there is no “piece of paper”. I have given you other clues about the Mastermind and his motivations, in the “threads” of other posts.
Unfortunately, that won’t come out at trial, because Tony Rackaukas doesn’t want it to. Instead of sinking the ship, so that the rats jump off, he instead is creating a Rat Sanctuary.
At least I will be partially vindicated, when evidence that is consistent with a prior conspiracy to harm Kelly Thomas is used defensively at the criminal trial.
Best wishes, Steve. I am so proud to have attended Fullerton High School with you.
Wrong. There was no violence on Kelly’s part so any prior behavior is irrelevant and not evidence of anything in this murder.
What will be relevant is the cops prior interaction with Kelly, and the brutal cross-examination will be directed at the cops by the DA.
We will know that within a year.
we “know” that now-i dont give a shit what a jury says
We know that. Sometimes what you think doesn’t always happen though. 🙂
who’s we?
What is the significance of the fact that the victim of this brutal murder just happened to be a schizophrenic drifter? The cops KNEW of Kelly and his mental disorder. It could have been ANYONE who was murdered by those six out-of-control individuals (AKA: police officers). This email is a fallacy!
So messed up. 🙁
I hope they hold the Pre trial too. It’s just a technicality. I think one charge against Ramos will be dropped at Pre trial. I don’t see how they did murder and manslaughter anyways, but one will be dropped at Pre trial. Gonna be a great case to follow.
Well I will be there every step. And you are probably right on a few points in this case, but where you and I differ is on what actually comes of it. As I have said many times before, we shall see.
BTW sorry for talking sh*t last night, I just can’t believe that none of you will stand up against this crap. It just really bugs me.
…Show was really good too, thanks for asking. 😛
Filing two levels of wrongful death is not unusual. It is a signal that the jury is to make the final determination. If a prosecutor files only second-degree murder and holds out against third-degree, the jury may be forced to let the defendant walk when they would have agreed on a third-degree charge.
im not “thinking” anything-this was murder period fin-its exactly what I think it is MURDER – you just haul em in, right? isnt that what you say?
well, im the judge and jury since you wont be – you must be fun at a party with no opinion–“so, what do you think of that beer?” “well, i dont know, lets ask someone else, it may be good but someone else may think its horrible-I’ll know in a year”
I’ve said from day one it was not Murder. Murder will not work in trial. If at trial they only offer murder it will be not guilty. Manslaughter is the right option. Problem is that people are doing a year in county for manslaughter so the punishment isn’t enough anymore.
what IS murder to you?
I blame the fool who didn’t kill Cicinelli. Six shots and the asshole is still alive.
No kidding….
But remember the Shebear said he was an alien. That explains how he could survive all those bullets.
Hmm. Aliens disguised as cops. That would be a great way to infiltrate Earth societies.
Thanks for the explanation, Pat!
Remember…there is an Evidence Code and rules about what comes in. The judge will weigh whether allowing in the incidents (if true) mentioned is more prejudicial than valuable to issues in the case. His dad had to put him in an arm bar…? Come on. I highly doubt anything like that would see the light of the courtroom. Ramos initiated all threats and violence!
Yes. I know. I didn’t said Dad and arm bar. I said the 245 ADW against grandma that caused the family to get an emergency restraining order against Kelly. That will be drilled in court. All violence will.
You think? Simple google search results re how courts actually evaluate this kind of evidence of prior violence:
“After surveying the state of the law in jurisdictions throughout the country, we are persuaded that evidence of a victim’s prior violent conduct may be probative of whether the victim was the first aggressor where a claim of self-defense has been asserted and the identity of the first aggressor is in dispute. [Note 1] Consequently, when such circumstances are present, we hold, as a matter of common-law principle, that trial judges have the discretion to admit in evidence specific incidents of violence that the victim is reasonably alleged to have initiated. While there is potential for confusion and prejudice inherent in the admission of this type of evidence, trial judges are well equipped to decide whether the probative value of the evidence proffered outweighs its prejudicial effect in the context of the facts and issues presented in specific cases.”
Problem with your expectation Reality Is is that Ramos and Wolfe knew Kelly so well they had concluded he was NOT a threat prior to and during the interrogation on the night of Kelly’s death. Prior to letting in evidence of a violent act from 19 years ago, the judge will also have to consider the reality ( pun intended) that Ramos and Wolfe did not even do a pat down search of Kelly.
They did not fear Kelly until after they had killed him. The fear was of not having a defense, not the physical danger posed by Kelly.
Yep. Kelly instills a lot more fear in the FPD and the Three Tree Trunks than he ever did alive!
Like I said, trial will teach you and shock you in more ways than you think. They didn’t know him, and didn’t know he was schizo. He was known as a homeless. If you think cops know their homeless and their problems, then that just shows how far from reality you are. Watch and see. Learn.
They knew him, , you forget the call placed by the bar mentioned him by name…..They drove in and walked right up to him sitting on the bus bench. They were hard on him to scare him away from hanging out where it was bad for business for customers to see him.
Where is “Justice for All”? R.I. needs to be set straight again.
LOL JFA needs meds. 🙂
R.I.- I’m actually pleasantly shocked. For once, you are absolutely correct!
Ever since July 5th, I have needed heart meds! I have a seriously broken heart, which will NEVER completely heal, because FPD THUGS, brutes, murderers, aiders, abettors, and conspirators- tortured and murdered an unarmed, innocent Kelly Thomas-who was ONLY guilty of trying to preserve his own life. Kelly had a LAWFUL RIGHT to defend himself!
There was, and is, NO EXCUSE for murdering Kelly Thomas, who was unarmed. A prior record of mental illness, or a prior police record, or a supposed, perceived danger, is no excuse for killing an unarmed man.
Here’s a quote from the L.A. Times:
“Orange County Dist. Atty. Tony Rackauckas said at a news conference last week that Ramos initiated the violence without provocation and that a surveillance video showed Thomas to be acting in “self-defense, in pain and in panic.”
and that’s what trial is for. To use the facts and allow people to make the decision based on those facts. We will see.
Duh Sherlock!
I say that often. Duh. 🙂
Murder is the case. Pay attention lol.
Anything less is unacceptable. PERIOD. You know this too.
Lol we will see. They charged murder and manslaughter. Makes no sense.
It seems you agree these guys should be put away but you know they wont…. maybe if you let the rest of us know you agree these guys are dirty and should go down, but will not because the D.A. needs cop unions and the lawyers will drag all of kelly’s faults out. The cops should be subject to the same character masacre that kelly will be. Show some compassion for a dead guy who did nothing worth being beaten to death……. Please turn in a dirty cop. I know you know several, that pension is just to good and having friends is just to powerful for you to do the right thing.
I like you and appreciate your input, RI. But I think here (as I stated abvoe) you demonstrated the limits of your intellect.
Perhaps I have spent too much time around lawyers and judges and not enough time with cops.
The two that are guility are already serving their time. No Job, No pay, and the public hates them. Must be tough knowing that your life has sunk lower than whale shit. And the only people that support you are just as bad off. Bet, they wished they never answered that call July 5th. Having a huge ego, sometimes can bite the hand that feeds you. Murder and manslaughter, face their lives suck, in jail or out.
makes alot of “sense” it WAS murder but DA gave manslaughter in case a hold out idiot like yourself- cant convict a cop “hero” of murder just because he is Cop the Wonder Boy
like I said I DONT GIVE A SHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTT what a jury of your kind say- these brothers of yours murdered Kelly-MURDERED him, and a nice warm place awaits each and everyone of them and the dopes who back them.
The DA did that in case the jury does not find guilt in the more serious charge of murder and manslaughter. My interest lies in the forthcoming federal civil rights violations case!
A lot of people are wondering about the charging of two crimes. It is actually two different “counts” for a single crime.
Manslaughter is, with respect to Murder, a “lesser included offense”. All of the factual elements of a “lesser included offense” are present in the larger, more inclusive offense; but the more inclusive offense has additional factual elements.
If a “core” or “common” element fails, then all charges fail. But usually, it is the supplemental or incremental factual element that is most likely to not be adequately proven… so that the “lesser included offense” is proven, and the “bigger” offense is not.
This charging of lesser and more inclusive counts is just about the only competent thing which Orange County DA’s Office did here — aside from its factual investigation. But the legal work is absolutely terrible; it smacks of corruption.
FYI for “Reality Is” and other interested folk: The crime of “Murder” requires that the “malice” be “aforethought”. The “aforethought” period of time need not be very long. You can bet that “how long is it, when it becomes aforethought”, will be intensively researched, and reflected in a jury instruction. Not that I believe that this case will ever make it to trial; the two defendants will be dismissed prior to trial, I would predict.
All of you out there are asking the right questions. Best wishes, WSH
That’s the part I didn’t get. You either have the malice aforethought or you don’t. B
Thanks for the info.
🙂
Slip on some gloves, threaten to fuck someone up.. Not exactly a split second judgment call. Lock ’em up, and maybe the Sheriffs can whisper to a few people that the ‘new guy’ is a cop. Wee!
How ironic that gloves are going to play such a large part of another murder trial. The premeditation can be demonstrated by the fact that Ramos put the gloves on to prevent his hands being bloodied by what he knew was about to happen.
Murder. Guilty.
Or toss a tube of vaseline into the cell? 🙂
Bingo. Book that Danno! The LE side of this debate is on such the wrong track; I am looking forward to this trial because I want some serious changes in LE policy. If that doesn’t happen in this case we have big problems.
I would be greatly surprised if there has not already been serious changes in LE policy regarding the use of force. I wonder how many law enforcement agencies have told their officers to not kill people just because they feel like it.
There are no problems with the polices. They are used nationwide. Based on case law.
there is a big problem with DUI checkpoint policies – huh, RI?
Personally, I see nothing wrong with a DUI check point. If you’re not drunk, you won’t go to jail.
Its all that 4th amendment stuff…. no crime no reason to be stopped…. if cops could get rid of the 4th and the 2nd… heck it would be China. They are trying though.
IMHO Senor Corrupt, DUI checkpoints are “per se” violations of the 4th amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
Always take the 5th when they violate your 4th.
No problem. Making cities sanctuary cities for illegals is affecting politics.
Wow! Are you being intentionally disingenuous, or are you completely blind to what’s going on? I think you’re blind.
No I’m serious. Show me one policy that has an issue. I’ll give you $100 for every policy that has an issue or isn’t in line with case law. Ready? Go. 🙂
Policy 1: Hiring a cyclops cop who didn’t pass POST requirements.
Policy 2: Returning cops who murdered a harmless transient to street duty without so much as a cursory explanation to the media or public of why that was done.
Policy 3: Hiding details of the FPD criminal behavior from Bruce Whitaker, and making every attempt to stall or derail his investigation of the facts.
Policy 4: Attempting to derail an official investigation of the murder by offering a large cash settlement to Ron Thomas in the hopes a confidentiality agreement would sweep the incident under a very worn rug at FPD.
Policy 5: Ignoring multiple complaints of sexual battery against a FPD officer and allowing that officer to remain on the streets.
Policy 6: Refusal to investigate why a FPD officer attempted to disable or destroy his voice recorder in an attempt to hide evidence of a potential murder at the Fullerton City Jail.
I could go on, but the point has been made. The policies at FPD are just a culpable as the criminals at FPD.
Your turn.
These aren’t policies.
My opinion.
1) POST could tell us but Chief’s have hired people that fall below the standards before. He will say why he did and then what? It is what it is. He hired him for the reason he says under oath. Nothing illegal.
2) Cops who kill suspects/citizens get 3 days off to talk to a psych, wind down, etc then they return to work. The investigation is done by an outside agency so the PD has no knowledge of how that investigation is proceeding. If during that investigation wrong doing is found, that is when the cop would be placed on admin leave pending the final outcome. This case was a little different in that on the night, or for 5 days after, death wasn’t known. When it was, how it proceeded from there exactly, isn’t known. But the cops working isn’t abnormal. Cops go back to work in all deaths, until some wrong doing is located. In this case, they were eventually placed on admin leave. You say because of your pressure, but it could have been it was at that point in the investigation too.
3) Your opinion. Council people think they can make more demands than they can. I’m sure he got everything he was entitled too. He just doesn’t get anything he wants.
4) Cash settlements are normal. Happens in every major incident. Just went to a class on it. It’s preliminary, no authority to settle, just an idea of what it might take which is then taken back to council and the city. Normal procedures in every city.
5) Ignoring? You sure they ignored? Or investigated and punished, but didn’t punish how they should have?
6) They didn’t investigate? Someone said he got fired for it. No?
I know you could go on. I like going on with you.
Policies at FPD are the same as policies at most PD’s now that everyone is using Lexipol. They change based on case law changes. Best policies around. You will learn that the policies at FPD have no issues at all.
Your turn.
I say they’re policies. They don’t have to be cataloged to be a policy. They become de facto policy when admin repeatedly follows a course of action over time. This entire discussion could be boiled down to just a few de facto policies:
1. Hide the truth.
2. Lie to the media and the public.
3. Use cash settlements to hide the outcome of investigations.
4. Blame the victim.
5. Reward the perp.
In your original request you asked me to show you a policy that has an issue. Every single example I gave has “issues.” If that weren’t so you wouldn’t be defending them here.
1.) Disregarding POST guidelines makes as much sense as saying speed limits are optional. They’re they’re for a reason, not to give bureaucrats a desk job. Watch and see how this “issue” comes up in the trial.
2.) There was no investigation of any type as far as anyone can tell, until Tony Bushala put the hospital picture of Kelly Thomas on this blog. One month later. The public demand for accountability forced FPD to do an ‘investigation,’ if you can call it that: cops with broken bones, stolen articles in Kelly’s backpack, resisting arrest. FPD conducting an investigation of itself is like a submarine with screen hatches – it ain’t going anywhere, fast!
3.) You yourself posted in this very thread that Chief answers to City Council. That you would deny civilians have oversight of police matters shows your true prejudice against any oversight at all, ESPECIALLY by civilians.
4.) Happens every day in Fullerton, perhaps. Most of the civilized departments in the rest of America don’t attempt to hide their settlements with denials. The denial proves it was unethical at least, maybe criminal. I have no doubt it’s normal procedure at FPD, that’s why this is an “issue.”
5.) If they didn’t punish how they should have they ignored the seriousness of the offense. Capice? Ignored.
6.) Someone said the truth of what happened never came out because they fired him to cover up the facts. I’m sure he was fired for some concocted reason like having taken too many sick days. The lack of transparency at FPD isn’t just a policy, it’s a commandment.
What I’m learning is that there are two sets of FPD polices – one for pubic consumption as put out by Goodrich and you, and one for FPD practices as displayed by Cicinelli, Ramos, Rincon, and their ilk.
Your turn.
and that’s why you aren’t involved in police policies. Your opinion is understood though.
I’m just saying why they were done and why they are done nationwide.
1) That’s your opinion. I think if it does come up at trial you will see what it will be a quick topic with no further discussion. If it was a major deal, it would have been addressed years ago when it was done for the first time, up to when it was done recently. I think it comes down to discrimination. If someone was to push the standard, prove they can do the job with the handicap, they could sue for discrimination based on that handicap. That’s why people that fall under the standards of POST, are hired from time to time.
2) You can think that and give Tony all the credit but there was a full scale investigation going at the time it blew up. You won’t’ ever believe that but there was.
3) You are proving clearly why people like you don’t make police decisions. That’s what I’m saying. There are legal issues that don’t allow things to happen. It’s a great thing that is in place or people like you would walk all over things. It keeps everyone in check, including the Chief, Mayor, Council, and civilians. Yes, people will not have access to certain things, especially in personnel matters, that includes sworn and non sworn. Yes, I believe that process and right is very valuable to everyone. Without it, cities would pay out millions for stepping on people’s rights.
4) Just saying how it is statewide. A meeting for a settlement is normal. People that are bit by dogs are paid the next day. People that are hit by a car driven by a council person are paid the next day. This is all normal procedure.
5) There is nothing that dictates the level of punishment. That’s part of the problem. You could say rear ending a car is a fireable offense. Chief says no it’s a 3 day offense. Council could say it’s a 4 day offense. Other Chief’s could say it’s a letter of reprimand offense. Capice?
6) Like I said, you enjoy making things up or saying things that lead others to believe you know the truths. Sick days is a perfect example. I’ll buy that just for fun, he was fired for sick day usage.
I disagree. If anyone violates a policy, they will be investigated and disciplined. You haven’t shown me otherwise at all yet.
Unfortunately ^ he is right. Which is why this case is paramount. The outcome of this case (after the Federal one) will hopefully change things on a national level. 😉
G’night people. 🙂
It is like prison reform. Prisons were fine until it was discovered all the guards were beating people to death, starving them, etc etc etc …. then the feds had to get involved in prison reform. If the guards had just been human and upheld the state laws then all would be good….. Cops just cannot control themselves… look at New Orleans and Chicago…. and New York, Brattons little fifedom of corruption.
These ffffer’s love to talk shit, but they dont even know who was involved..mensos!
Push push push……
SAN BERNARDINO – It took 34 law enforcement officers to end a brief melee after a car allegedly struck a pedestrian Saturday night, police said Sunday.
Around 7:45 p.m., police responded to a call that a vehicle had hit a pedestrian in the 1500 block of West Fifth Street.
Lt. Rich Lawhead said police attempted to keep the motorists safe from what officers assumed was a hostile crowd because of the collision.
“When they (officers) showed up, the crowd was unruly,” Lawhead said Saturday night.
According to relatives who were hosting a football theme party, a father holding his 1-year-old son walked across the street to get to his car. At that point a car turned from Tia Juana Street onto Fifth where it hit another car. The impact pushed the second car into the father and his child.
Danny Gonzales, who was at the party, said that people ran out into the street to see if the motorists and the father and son were okay. At one point, Gonzales said his mother ran into the street to get her mother away from the scene. She ran toward an officer who allegedly punched her causing her to lose consciousness, Gonzales said.
“Everybody just went wild after that,” Gonzales said.
The crowd began throwing bottles, rocks and cups of beer at officers, Lawhead said. Before the incident was over, officers from several nearby agencies were called to assist.
There were four San Bernardino County Sheriff’s deputies, three officers
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from Colton, six officers from Rialto and seven California Highway Patrol officers and 17 officers from the San Bernardino Police Department, Lawhead said.
Three people were arrested during the incident, Lawhead said. Names of those arrested with still unavailable Sunday.
Gonzales said his mother and two of his male relatives were the three arrested.
Lt. Gwendolyn Waters, public information officer for the San Bernardino Police Department, said police warned one man who kept wandering into the street during their investigation to stay away of the accident scene.
She said the man appeared intoxicated and kept trying to pick up objects from the accident area. After being warned more than once, an officer began to arrest him for public intoxication.
As the officer was putting on handcuffs on the man, a woman came running toward him, Waters said. Another officer, fearing that the woman was going to attack the arresting officer, struck her.
Waters said the pedestrian is believed to be at fault in the accident. Both he and the child were taken to a hospital with non-life-threatening injuries.
The only Sgt Klein FPD had left or retired more than 6 years ago.
Yeah, I am sure they wished they didnt go to that call. I sure they wished kelly would of cooperated and not resisted. I hope when they get aquitted they can sue the DAO and the Fullerton Police Department for wrongfully charged.
Oh yay, and I want a money tree and also to be king of Gondwanaland, and my queen shall be Rachel Weisz’ hotter, younger sister.
Kelly didn’t resist. After he struck by Wolfe and tackled he didn’t resist. After he was tasered by Cicinelli he didn’t resist. After he was smashed in the face 8 times by Cicinelli he didn’t resist.
Whether or not they are convicted is irrelevant to their future employment. They violated policy at every step of the way. They are done as cops, and so are Wolfe, and Hampton.
What may be even more interesting than the defendants’ testimony is the testimony of the FPD brass who will have to defend their actions putting people like Cicinelli, Ramos, and Wolfe on the street. McKinley will most likely be called to the stand to explain policy if Rackauckas has any balls at all.
Oh yeah! The defense will get that swine McKinley on the stand!!
In the federal case the AG will get that swine McKinley on the stand.
In the civil suit Mardirossian will get that swine McKinley on the stand.
Did I forget to mention that McKinley is a swine?
That will be the easiest part. No priors, great evals, perfect training. Does it get any easier? I would wager that the one eye hiring won’t even be allowed in this trial, maybe the civil trial.
Do you frequently talk to yourself this way? They should definitely put YOU on the stand!
🙂
Reality, do you have a sixth sense?
🙂
n.
A power of perception seemingly independent of the five senses; keen intuition.
No. There might be a bit of 6th sense mixed in with my training, education, and experience though. 🙂
and that’s why we have a trial. Pay attention when it starts, you might be surprised. 🙂
LOL! Like that will ever happen. Quit being naive.
Your role as spokeshole for FPD becomes more apparent as the trial draws closer. Each of your responses focuses on Kelly Thomas’ actions fighting to save his life and characterizes that as evidence that will excuse the killer cops’ actions.
Has anyone asked you your neck size? I’m sure choke collars are already being prepared as we speak.
Anyone else notice the double i in ‘wiil’ …
…”ii”did!
It was my GED speaking. 🙂
yep-he’s an arrogant bully too-and a coward-like the rest of his blue crew
🙂 🙂
Now THERE is some LOGIC! THIS explaination above is much more logical and probable to occur in the trial, based on all the facts we know, to include what Tony R. stated.
I think Seer2some blew your doors off on this one Reality Is.
lol, but not that much.
Oh whew. 🙂
Explaination: My comment above ‘but not that much’ meant I wasn’t laughing that much as opposed to seer2some not blowing RI’s doors off.
Because he DID blow your doors off, RI!
He blew me? 🙂
I quite often blow Reality Is’ doors off, , that’s why he owes me so many donuts. He doesn’t say much……just moves on.
BTW, , Cincinelli couldn’t have passed the POST vision requirements and here is the link again for you. Also, you have that backwards about handicapped individuals suing for discrimination on not being hired. They would sue because some were given a pass and were HIRED…….
http://lib.post.ca.gov/Publications/Vision.pdf
I disagree but we will see in the civil trial more than likely.
🙂
It’s easy and fun having close to the last word here because there are only about 5 of us here! 🙂
Incorrect. There are a handful of commenters. There are several thousand unique visitors everyday. 🙂
Oh good. That makes me feel better then. 🙂
Yes, everyone can see that there’s an overpaid cop out there who blogs all day long. Yay!
Just as I suspected.
🙂
🙂
What do you think of McKinley? Goodrich?
Who cares?
The heat is getting to them. I heard that a mention was made at a big local church yesterday about the FPD, CITY HALL, UNION PEOPLE, DEMOCRATS, REPUBLICANS all being in attendance and the need not to take sides. I have a question for that preacher. Where have you been for all the protests and the meetings? There can be no unity in the absence of justice Mr Preacher. When the righteous thrive, the people rejoice; when the wicked rule, the people groan. Get it?
To who? The community?
Good points but I think the main problem is the term “justice”. That’s what is causing so much separation nationwide. Everyone want’s things to be how they want them to be, and obviously everyone has different ideas of how things should be. So it’s just a huge mess.
Same thing here. Everyone’s idea of justice is so different. In the end, no one will be happy.
I think the preacher was saying exactly that. Everyone in the world needs to come closer together and find that happy medium. I know that will never happen, but it’s always a dream in this world.
Wrong, again. That preacher is just a big pussy who wants to live and let live. There will be a low circle in Hell awaiting creeps like that who in time of a moral choice decided to make no choice at all.
Happy medium? Hahaha. What will you place in the scales to balance the Kelly Thomas killing by your pals in the FPD?
Like I said, you rip the preacher without even knowing his stance or reasoning.
You want death penalty right? No I don’t think death penalty is appropriate because I think the max charge will be manslaughter, if the DA can convince of that.
And you defend him without hearing a word.
Death penalty? No I want a conviction for what it was – Second Degree Murder.
I have never defended anyone.
I have always said you weren’t there, I wasn’t there, and in life there is one thing I don’t do. I don’t monday morning quarterback anyone without knowing all the facts, or being there. I’ve learned that not knowing all the facts and making decisions based on that is like the death penalty. Even videos where you see a short clip, and then see the whole thing later, the short clip means nothing.
So I’ve said from the start this whole thing was tragic. Someone made a mistake. The extent of that mistake can be determined once the investigation is complete. That investigation was in the hands of the DA, the only person with all the facts. I can only rely on that investigation to say who did wrong, and how much wrong did they do. Trial will show that from the time prior to the incident, to the days after. I rely on that, and the facts that i know.
Reality Is…..With all due respect, I want you to know that I do appreciate all the information you provide and that you do explain how some things work or the thought processes behind them.
Thanks Seer. Ditto. 🙂
How do you know I wasn’t there, Sherlock?
Hahaha. What a clown.
The reality is you’re only here because admin let’s you play with us! 🙂
Mainly what the people of Fullerton want is proper punishment for the murderers, in this case, police officers for killing an innocent homeless man. The wants of the people of Fullerton and most commenting on this blog do not differ in what they want in terms of justice. No one’s dreaming.
Agree. I think everyone wants proper punishment. That’s where the issue will end up. I mean, even if Cicinelli gets found guilty he will do less than a year in jail or maybe even just home confinement. That will never satisfy you, so it has no hope.
Yes – home detention for trying to electrocute and then smash in the face of a totally innocent human being? You’re goddamned right that will never satisfy me; and if it satisfies you you’re a worthless swine.
Agree. That’s what is so messed up with the California system. It will only get worse. You can take a life now and get a year. Sad state of affairs. Has nothing to do with this case, just the sentencing in California now. Criminals will take much more risk now, knowing they will get a small punishment, small amount of time.
Very true. They now have the “crime pays” attitude.
Yep. It will only get worse. It’s very sad. Misdemeanors are really only infractions now. They always got cited out right away anyways, now they don’t get any time at all. I guess it’s the system and era we are in. No money, no time, no nothing. Just like all the ideas for FPD from the hardcore side, won’t happen because there is no money anywhere.
BTW, my question above, “what do you think of McKinley and Goodrich”, was to Reality Is.
Only because he seems to have McKinleyesque overtones to his comments. ie. ‘You will be surprised, etc. etc.’, ‘you haven’t seen the video’, ‘you are all assuming’.
Get it?
Sorry. Didn’t see it.
Goodrich, I have said before, he says to the public what the bosses tell him to say. So yes, he has said some things that might have ended up not true. That fault will be attributed to the relay of information from the bottom to the top and back to Goodrich. You see him on camera, and that’s the only time you see him. He’s done nothing wrong, he’s just relayed what the bosses wanted him to. That boss is gone now, so time to attempt confidence in the team that is in place.
McKinley. Interesting story. I look at him similar to how I look at Chief Gates. I think Gates was one of the best cops of his era. He started things for the first time that are used in LE nationwide. He was a no nonsense, street cop. I think his style might be what we find in the Gennaco report. Lack of direct supervision, and lack of fair, adequate discipline. This is what led to Rampart, etc. I don’t think Fullerton is or was a PD of corruption. The cops involved don’t have a history of incidents, and one incident doesn’t paint the PD as one of total corruption. I think with an outside, good, solid, fair Chief, FPD has the potential to move forward and be a great community to live and work in again.
My humble opinion. 🙂
I want more of your humble opinion RI…
Who do you see “potentially” as “an outside, good, solid, fair Chief”?
I think the best choice for sure is an outside Chief for Fullerton. Fullerton needs something fresh, a fresh look at things top to bottom. That would include structure, job duties, reporting, supervision, and community relations.
I think there are several great Chief options out there. The thing to remember is that we are all human. No one is perfect.
One Chief that I recently learned a lot about was Chief Suhr at San Francisco PD. I found it odd that San Francisco would hire a white Chief. When I researched him, and looked at how he handled that recent shooting incident, I was very impressed. He has a past too, got past it, and now is Chief of a very tough city in terms of dynamics, politics, and cultures.
Another guy that I have been impressed with is Commander Smith with LAPD. Seems like a great guy, very connected with community relations, but also very connected with tactics, polices, and police work.
It really depends on what the city council is looking for. If they are looking for a pawn that they can order around based on their agendas, it will be hard to get a good outside Police chief. The Fullerton job will not be a fun job for a police chief. It will take a huge amount of work, gaining confidence day by day, and really isn’t a job that most people would want. So it comes down to what I said about the young cops, who would want this job? I think there are great candidates out there it just depends on the direction city council wants to go, and a Chief that is ready for that direction.
Rambling. 🙂
In my opinion Chief Sitting Bull would be the best to take over FPD. He could clear out the dumbass deadwood better than anyone.
Agree. Sounds like a good Chief to get. Problem is you have to find wrong doing in the future to clear out the “dumbass deadwood”.
We won’t have far to look. You can’t threw a stone at the FPD without hitting a crook, a pickpocket, a pervert, a pill-popper, a con man, a perjurer, a liar, a killer….
If those are shown to be true, most are gone or will be gone in the future. Problem is if someone has been disciplined for something already, they can’t be disciplined again for the same offense. So you will have to catch them on something in the future to run them out the door.
Your humble opinion is full of shit. Goodrich says whatever he damn well pleases because his union is in charge. The chief was/is a useless slug, the city manager is a sissy, and the Three Hollow Logs are dead on their feet.
Oh ok. 🙂
It’s only based on assumptions. Assuming that they all applied to other PD’s around California and didn’t get hired. Most PD’s are currently hiring. I can’t see any reason why a new cop would want to stay in Fullerton. So if the young cops stay, then they probably couldn’t get hired elsewhere for whatever reason.
Thanks for that RI.
Based on what has come to light about McKinley and his most recent ‘foot-in-mouth’ comments concerning his FPD and the Kelly Thomas murder, he was obviously in this highest of LE positions as chief, for too long without oversight.
YOur idea of a good chief, like Fontana’s would be a great start, however, who would be responsible for watching over him/her. The Mayor, city manager, city council? Accountability needs to be in place.
You will never have anyone that is directly involved over the Chief. The Chief’s boss is the City Manager. The City Manager’s boss is the City Council. The boss of everyone technically is the People.
Usually in certain incidents that become PR related, the Chief will be run out of town. Chief’s only last about 3 years. They are the scapegoat for anything PR related, because it satisfies the public and saves their votes and jobs.
Internal operations will always be the job of the Police Chief. Good question you ask though about the supervision of the Police Chief. The City Manager usually has a pretty good pulse on how the Police Chief is handling things. So I guess that makes it clearly how important a good, involved City Manager is.
Wrong. In a heathy city the cops are controlled by the civilian authority. In a sick city the cops do whatever they want until something really bad happens. In any case the chief may go but most of the rotten apples stay in the barrel.
Which is why we need to clean out the department and bring in the Sheriff and save ten million a year.
Controlled by civilian authority. Interesting. Trying to picture a city like that. Maybe make Fullerton a new model. Hire 6 city residents as police chiefs and let them run the PD. Problem I guess would be funding those 6 positions.
Sheriff. Always an option but I don’t think this city would be happy with that in the long term.
LOL you are cute.
I’m not saying I’m walking around in uniform asking people that stuff. 🙂 Have someone from out of town walk around and talk to people. You will see what I’m talking about. 🙂
And that’s why I say, only time will tell the end result. I have my opinion of how it will play out, you have yours. Thus far, every step has played out exactly as I predicted. 🙂
It is the policy of this department that officers shall use only that amount of force that reasonably appears necessary, given the facts and circumstances perceived by the officer at the time of the event, to effectively bring an incident under control. “Reasonableness” of the force used must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene at the time of the incident. Any interpretation of reasonableness must allow for the fact that police officers are often forced to make splitsecond decisions in circumstances that are tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving about the amount of force that is necessary in a particular situation.
Given that no policy can realistically predict every possible situation an officer might encounter in the field, it is recognized that each officer must be entrusted with wellreasoned discretion in determining the appropriate use of force in each incident. While it is the ultimate objective of every law enforcement encounter to minimize injury to everyone involved, nothing in this policy requires an officer to actually sustain physical injury before applying reasonable force.
Any peace officer that has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested has committed a public offense may use reasonable force to effect the arrest, to prevent escape, or to overcome resistance. A peace officer who makes or attempts to make an arrest need not retreat or desist from his/her efforts by reason of resistance or threatened resistance of the person being arrested; nor shall such officer be deemed the aggressor or lose his/herright to selfdefense by the use of reasonable force to effect the arrest or to prevent escape or to overcome resistance (Penal Code § 835a).
Some reading for you people that like to learn more about police work and police policies. 🙂
Who cares about police policies if they aren’t observed or enforced and if violations aren’t punished?
Police ‘work’, well that’s another story altogether, isn’t it. Breaking into the wrong house because, you know, addresses are hard – and failing to acknowledge or report it, and then failing to respond to the complaints – that’s police work. A cop tackling a guy in his own driveway for ‘interfering’ with the cop (how does one interfere when you are silently filming from across the street?), that’s police work. Repeating “stop resisting!” to the video guy you just tackled for no valid reason is a farce, unless being a cop means you can do whatever you want whenever you want to whomever you want and they can just suck it. The “stop resisting” mantra reminds me of the guy in idiocracy who ended every sentence with “brought to you by Carl’s Junior.”
Correct.
And you will have incidences like these until we die. If you think otherwise, you aren’t looking at reality.
Yes, people do resist believe it or not. I can show you those videos too.
🙂
No shit, people actually resist? Were you teased as a kid for wearing a helmet to school?
LOL stop making fun of the yellow bus kids. That’s not nice.
Stop resisting. See, all better.
Lawful Performance of a Peace Officer The law defining the lawful performance of a peace officer and a detainee’s right to resist is described in CALCRIM 2670, which states, “A peace officer may use reasonable force to arrest or detain someone, to prevent escape, to overcome resistance, or in self-defense.” The law further describes, “If a peace officer uses unreasonable or excessive force while (arresting, attempting to arrest/ [or] detaining or attempting to detain) a person, that person may lawfully use reasonable force to defend himself or herself.” CALCRIM 2670 continues, “A person being arrested uses reasonable force when he or she: (1) uses that degree of force that he or she actually believes is reasonably necessary to protect himself or herself from the officer’s use of unreasonable or excessive force; and (2) uses no more force than a reasonable person in the same situation would believe is necessary for his or her protection.” Right to Self-Defense The law defining the right to self-defense is described in CALCRIM 3470, which states that a person has a right to use force in self-defense if they reasonably believe they are in imminent danger of suffering bodily injury or are in imminent danger of being touched unlawfully. This person must reasonably believe that the immediate use of force is necessary to defend against the imminent danger and uses no more force than is reasonably necessary to defend against that danger.
Have you noticed that all of the commanders behind Chief Beck look just like McKinley LOL
yes steroids cause baldness and teeny tools
ahhhh that’s why Viagra is the best selling drug these days. 🙂
Looks like they have a full timer to engage, enrage, diffuse, deflect, spin, twist, shill, disdain and entertain. We are special huh?
You are very special. 🙂
Looks like that’s what happened to Kelly.
Except that Kelly offered zero resistance. He exercised a legal right to avoid illegal arrest; and he never attacked anybody.
zero? at least say he ran. Just say that please. Didn’t make anything right, but at least say we can agree that running is resisting.
That all depends on if he was even told he was being detained. From what the D.A. said this was in question. You cannot resist arrest if you do not know you are under arrest. The last conversation Kelly had was that he was about to “Fuked up” ….. does not sound like “you are under arrest” to me.
Just say Ramos escalated an otherwise compliant non-violent contact and turned it into a brain dead guy in a pool of blood. Just say that please.
Funny the DA said he was avoiding an illegal arrest. Therefore he was not “resisting.” He was exercising his God-given right to avoid a promised assault.
Sorry. In this case running (as you call it) is the antithesis of resisting. No resistance, no provocation. Wolfe hit him with his stick and the two fat goon piled on.
Trial will show that. I think probable cause and detention was legal. Maybe DA was saying that the detention had ended, and he was free to leave. Or maybe the DA was saying the contact and detention were illegal. Those are all facts that will be answered at trial.
and I did. End of fight.
Isn’t it strange how people usually ALWAYS resist being MURDERED?? I wonder why that could possibly be?? (sarcasm intended) It was a NATURAL INSTINCT for Kelly Thomas to want to preserve his own life.
DUH, SHERLOCK!
Great point. I guess that’s why we hear it so often. Resisting is a normal and common occurrence.
My point is that Kelly was NOT resisting arrest; he was fighting for his very life against 6 armed FPD GOONS!! And, anyone else in that same situation would have done the same thing.
Prolly true.
“Prolly” – Seriously? How old are you? Three years old? Five years old?
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 :
No he wasn’t fighting at all. Except likely for air as five fat goons sat on him and tazered him.
Could self defense be misinterpreted as resisting?
For instance if I thought you were going to hit me in the face and I put my hand up or even grabbed your hand…could that be considered resisting?
…legally speaking…
and so is getting beat to death,
happens every day 🙁
It takes two to tango, er, fight. Did KT actually fight? Being the recipient of a one-sided thug cop mob beatdown is not a fight, it is apparently either murder or manslaughter.
We shall see. I think the people will speak loud and clear.
🙂
So you are not a alien?
I guess I would have to look up that definition too lol 🙂
Did RI answer this?
My guess is yes…
I take the 5th.
You honestly think that cops wants people with handicaps out there as partners? Not a chance in hell. Reality is if it happens, there is nothing we can do unless we observe serious officer safety issues.
You won’t see any part of that and either will Mr Whitaker. Whitaker will see the final investigation.
Wrong again. Keep changing my words. I was saying that if you listened to a girl come forward and say a cop touched her, you would walk over to the PD and as a council person you would fire her. Then you would demand documents, demand other things, and make public statements against the cop. In the end, what if it was all made up? All a story in the middle of some other dispute? Then you would pay the cop millions of dollars. I was saying that an investigation has to be done before you can say anything. Otherwise, the city will pay out. You say Rincon was brushed under the rug and let to do what he wanted. I say it was investigated.
Hm. What did the judge say?
He said that the level of discipline was too low. Precisely what I have said I think the Gennaco report will emphasize.
🙂
well. per something official, it was more than 1 girl and this went on over a course of years-I can imagine what the fullerton investigation of a blue badger consists of-watching 2 pink panther movies, writing up a “report” which is actually a grocery list and Im sure involves beer
You just need to learn a little more about how cities operate. The laws. Brown act. All kinds of things that won’t allow what you want to happen, to happen. You have a dream of what you want to see. Problem is that how you want it won’t ever happen for a variety of reasons.
Here is a article that concerns me for our nation.
It speaks to both sides….I am afraid we are as a nation imploding like a black-hole.
http://www.indypendent.org/2011/11/25/police-as-proxy-for-power/
You are in for a big shock!!
Yep..they dont want to go to jail.
or get murdered, creep
From the backside of a tazer? you are the one in for a shock.
Damn, you beat me to it. This troll won’t come out from under his bridge.
Backside of the taser doesn’t shock. I’ve been shocked before. Stunning sensation through the body. Body feels better after. 🙂
Are you playing with your taser again?
You were quick vw type 53a.
Was doing the daily spark test. 🙂
We’ll see………………..:-)
They have eyes, yet see not.
we already SEE nothing is going to change the truth
Can’t wait…………………:-)
wait on then-the truth is the truth, no matter what a another person says-
to me, GUILTY, MURDER anyway this ends-nothing to “see”
Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
Unions intend to be active in restructuring pensions to reduce costs while ensuring decent retirements for public workers. This is not a new role for the unions, though.
In the past two years alone, we have negotiated a host of agreements that saved the state $600 million by agreeing to pay more for pensions while trimming benefits and lowering costs. Negotiations in more than 200 California counties, local districts and cities including Escondido and San Marcos are bringing similar savings.
Dire “Chicken Little” warnings suggest that the state treasury will collapse if major pension cuts aren’t made. But the sky is not falling. Only 3 percent of California’s budget goes for pension contributions, a far smaller percentage than the 3.8 percent national average, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.
The governor’s 12-point pension redesign plan is a good debate starting point, calling for significant changes, some constructive, such as curbing pension spiking and double dipping, others more worrisome, such as shifting future pensions to an insecure hybrid structure and substantially increasing full retirement age.
The hybrid plan, combining a smaller secure traditional pension with an insecure 401(k)-type plan, would jeopardize retirement. Experience shows it would increase administrative costs, lower returns and deprive the state economy of dependable pension income during economic downturns.
Continuing market volatility makes hybrids risky. Public funds like CalPERS are run by experts and invest over the long term, averaging gains and losses to weather volatility. With 401(k)-style accounts, if the market hits the skids when a worker plans to retire, there is no time for savings to recover.
Traditional plans outperform defined contribution plans by 0.8 percent a year, says the Brookings Institute, producing 25 percent greater returns over 30 years, a substantial margin possibly spelling the difference between a reasonably secure retirement and a life on the edge, likely dependent on public assistance to survive.
CalPERS reports traditional pensions, flowing steadily into the California economy, generate $26 billion in economic activity yearly, a constant positive, particularly in turbulent times. However, 401(k)s guarantee no such stability, almost certainly falling along with the market, taking the economic activity they generate down with it.
Raising the retirement age is equally ill-advised. Studies show doing so disproportionately harms low wage workers and people of color. More workers would likely retire early on reduced pensions, and be dependent on taxpayer funded social services. Retirement age should be negotiable. A one-size-fits-all retirement would pay no heed to the rigors and needs of the job.
Public safety work is particularly demanding, calling for strength and stamina. So safety retirement plans let police, firefighters and other first responders retire early before abilities decline. But public well-being depends upon the contributions of all public workers and all should be able to retire on a decent pension when age makes them unable to continue effectively in their jobs.
Modest public pensions aren’t the cause of the retirement crisis in America. It stems from the alarming deterioration of private-sector pensions. It is crucial that we work together for retirement security for everyone —- public and private sector workers alike.
That is all based on the assumption that what is in those funds are still real assets and not linked directly or indirectly in derivatives. Also the US dollar is being printed out of thin air with NO backing except for its subjective value and a perceived confidence in its value. You actually believe the looting of these funds hasnt already begun to take place? This thing can’t be propped up much longer. We are taking on more water than the bilge pumps can handle. There are NO lifeboats. We need honest local leaders who will serve and protect us when the water level hits the bridge. Got a penthouse on Mars real cheap for 3% down with FHA approval and its assumable if you’re interested.
dumb ass
ALL school busses are yellow
but you ma’am were a passenger on the SHORT BUS
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
LOL yea that’s what I meant. The short bus.
One time at work a kid on a yellow short bus jumped out of the back and flipped me off. He than ran up to me and said fuck you with his middle finger straight out and high!! He then grabbed my baton and started beating my motorcycle. I just stood by and smiled. 🙂
Reality Is……those short buses are the Special Ed. kids……
I do not know what to make of this post RI.
Do you think that was the way to handle the situation?
Did you consider restraining him to keep him from damaging the motorcycle?
Would you advise the public to stand by if their property was damaged? Come to think of it, the motorcycle was in a sense public property, right?
Please explain why you stood by while the motorcycle was beat with your baton.
Great points!
There are many incidents with police that are lose lose. No matter what you do, it’s not right and would be handled a variety of ways by different cops or citizens if put in the same situation.
It was an overweight, large 10 year old severely retarded boy. Bus company told the parents he needs to be in restraints due to his unpredictable actions and size. Parents say no. So as they are driving he gets up, grabs the driver, he pulls over, kid crawls over the driver and breaks the turn signal off, and goes toward the back of the bus.
I pull up. He’s opens the rear emergency exit and verbally assaults me and gives me the finger. He jumps down and starts toward my bike.
Now I can see he is severely retarded. Imagine if as he is coming at me I pull my baton and strike his leg to halt the approach at me, or tackled him to the ground and started wrestling with him or fighting? Bad public image. Chose to step away, he focused on my bike now instead of me. Unit arrived and we detained him until the parents came.
No damage. Good ending. Could I have baton’d him, pepper sprayed him, or Tasered him? Sure. The driver was in tears he was so scared. Could he have kicked my ass in a ground wrestling match? Who knows. Could he have gone for my gun? Maybe.
Just a split second decision I made and if he damaged my bike, so be it. I look at that as a better result than the image of me using force or fighting with a 10 year old severely disabled boy.
🙂
Jeepers, I agree,…whoa, am I actually agreeing with you?
OMG..I am, good call….I hope the parents rethought the whole restraint thing after that.
RI, , Excellent choice…….you handled that very well, , as it takes many years sometimes to get control of kids like that behavior….Bravo!
and you did not pepper spray him?
🙁
🙂
At least there is hope for the justice system right? Conrad Murray was found guilty of the same charge Cicinelli is charged with. He got the maximum possible sentence due to prolonged wrong doing, continues offenses, no remorse, etc. He got 4 years. He will do max 2 years. More than likely less than 1 year with probation or home confinement. Nice system we have. Take a life and get less than a year. Someone fucked that part of our system all up. Crime is going to go through the roof in the next few years. 🙁
I know, , not enough for taking a life…They will get the time from the federal charges against them.
I saw the tape….Kelly resisted and fought. The cops will never be convicted.
I saw what happened. Kelly was provoked to run and then got the living shit kicked out of him by six big fat thugs with badges and guns.
I saw the video and I say a murder was committed.
Total crap. Not that I care about the MJ/CM bs but it shines a light on the bigger problem. The public apathy is deafening. 🙁
watch the dirty hippies get one over on the l.a. pussy dept
http://www.ustream.tv/occupyfreedomla
Ok you say he was passive and some of you say he ran cause he was scared. Make up your mind people. Stop talking out your asses.