Well, At Least We’re Not Alone
If that provides any satisfaction.
It seems that downtown Huntington Beach suffers the same dysfunctional symptoms as downtown Fullerton: drunk driving, rowdyism, vandalism, etc., etc. The cause? Too many bars churning out too many inebriated patrons. Sound familiar?
DT HB has even more bars than DT Fullerton, apparently, and that’s saying something. Looks like some citizens are finally fed up with the trouble and the reputation all the bars bring to town. The City has no idea how to fix the mess they’ve made.
Here in Fullerton we have the answer to the problem: declare victory, legitimize the troublemakers and subsidize their fire sprinkler infrastructure. Why? ‘Cause this is the New West, dagnabit, ‘n we’re open fer bidness!
One man’s social pathology is another man’s economic opportunity.
Jes’ put the I-talians in charge and it’ll be well run.
There are ample laws to deal with drunk drivers, fighters, vandals and pukers. Sustained crackdowns reduce bad behavior.
The problem is that there aren’t enough police on the street. That’s because the price of a cop has doubled in the last 15 years.
Thanks, police unions. Public safety is secondary to generous pay and benefits.
At least in Fullerton you still have your historic downtown, even if it is covered in fake old and brick veneer. HB redeveloped their haven for drunks by tearing down anything older than 1986, and putting up mega-blocks. Meanwhile here in Anaheim we tore down our downtown for a Vons. Not very charming, but at least nobody pees on my lawn at 2 am. But you guys do still have the architecture and infrastructure to create something other than puke central.
Cynthia,
It’s true that many if the downtown buildings survive, but they are chipping away at them. Four old ones on Malden and Amerige are skated for demolition to make way for the Amerige Court development. The deal to allow the Flyers baseball team build out and operate the Amerige Park seems to include destruction of several very old buildings on Malden and Commonwealth to make room for a new structure of some sort. Neatly all of these buildings have businesses operating on them now, and none of them sell booze.
This raises a good question. How long do you preserve the “old” parts of a city’s downtown? The buildings will not last forever. Don’t get me wrong, I much prefer the “old” downtown, but still…
When they butchered the old downtown in Brea, my understanding is that some of the buildings were in such disrepair that it would have been cheaper to tear them down and build brand new identical replacements. One of the businesses I used to frequent there had terrible roof leaks to the point I got allergy attacks from the mold and mildew in the ceilings and walls.
Now you’ve gone and done it. You pushed the button that pops me onto my soapbox faster than any other subject. How long do you preserve an old building? For as long as it takes! Those buildings are not falling apart because they are old, they are falling apart because idiot property owners do not maintain them! The age of the building is not only NOT a negative, it is the biggest positive in its favor. Those old buildings are framed in old growth redwood, it is tough as steel, work crews snap saw-zalls and drills in my framing here at home. But if some moron fails to maintain the roof of an older structure, we somehow fault the structure rather than the owner. Take care of these buildings and they will last another hundred years or so, certainly they will last longer than the 20-year shelf life of the stucco crap with styrofoam plant on ornamentation that is going up in its place in many cities! Why would we do that? Well to begin with, these old buildings give a community character, a sense of place that cannot be manufactured by the civic planners of south county and their colorboards of acceptable shades of beige. These old buildings give even newcomers a sense of belonging, think about how popular the Main Street section of Disneyland is. The only thing to do there is shop and eat overpriced food that is bad for you, but it is always packed, because even a fake sense of nostalgia grounds people and comforts them. A real sense of nostalgia is irreplacable at any price. They give value to a community that goes beyond any numbers from an appraiser. Why would we save these old buildings? Because the greenest building on earth is the one that is already constructed! All those Leed certified building materials we want to replace our downtowns with take their toll on the environment in their own way, from manufacturing to shipping, to disposing of them when a property owner discovers that their vinyl windows warp and need replacing far faster than the wood windows they replaced. Why would we do this? Because it is the right thing to do. And I understand that alcohol-soaked vomit is not good for these building materials, so we may want to rethink the land uses that Redevelopment has shifted y’all into. You want an example of what happens to a town when you dismiss the value of history? Come to Anaheim, I would be happy to give you a tour. BTW-mold happens in new buildings too, just add water and a lazy owner.
Disrepair is disrepair, old buildings need maintenance too just like anything.
I once lived in a flat (in Europe) that was built in the 1500s which managed to not crumble to dust by itself or be bombed to bits in one of many wars. Anything’s possible.
Bushalas… please stop renting your buildings to these bars. Thank you.
i could go for a beer
With a 250 man police force I think that I could schedule enough cop cars around the downtown bars between 10PM and 2AM on Friday and Saturday nights.
If they would fire the five highest paid policemen in Fullerton, I’ll bet the rest of them would solve this “problem” without any further encouragement.
Man, I guess you really do have to fight for your right to party.
HeeHaw should patent and franchise the formula: stim-u-late the bar owners and illegal dance club operators by looking the other way then subsidizing their permits and fire sprinklers.
Do It yourself Open For Business!
You can try to have some influence over the development of downtown Fullerton today at 4:00:
http://www.cityoffullerton.com/civica/press/display.asp?layout=1&Entry=2325
Four o clock in the afternoon? What a great time. That will ensure that only the elderly or unemployed will be able to attend. Oh, and public servants.
Exactly. Safe geriatric boohoos.
Maybe Travis can get us the names of the citizen members of this committee.
It’s on the web:
The Downtown Core & Corridors Specific Plan Evaluation Committee consists of 10 members of the public and seven city staff members.
Members of the public:
Ted Kim
Allyn Lean
Marty Burbank
Aaron Gregg
Kitty Jaramillo
Adam Moore
Theresa Harvey
Michael Hurst
Gregory Sebourn
Pat Buttress
Staff members:
Not listed
You can also attend tonight’s meeting at the city Yard from 5-6± where the firm will be chosen to conduct public outreach and write a plan that addresses YOUR concerns.
The only problem is that YOU will need to show up at SEVERAL of the workshops, not just one.
As Tony would have you say of brick veneer: JUST SAY NO! Same goes for McSpanish and fake old. Both work at Disneyland but not in Fullerton.
Kitty Jaramillo, city employee?
Theresa Harvey, knee-jerk City Hall supporter?
Marty Burbank, knee-jerk Redevelopment supporter?
Aaron Gregg, bankrupt tax dodger?
With the exception of Sebourn I’ll bet the rest are suitably safe.
Jeez, where’s Roland Chi?
Pat Butress is a SoCal Edison monopolist. She lives in Orange. Some “citizen.”
It doesn’t say “citizen.” It says member of the public. I guess there’s no requirement that you have to actually live in Fullerton. She’s also on the Chamber board of directors.
You forgot to mention:
Allyn Lean (filling in for Chi?), Adam Moore, Michael Hurst, and Ted Kim. Interesting that you left these people off of your list…why???
Staff members:
Al Zelinka, Dan Hughes, Nicole Bernard, Heather Allen, Hugo Curiel, Wes Morgan, and Robert Ferrier.
Allyn Lean, Ted Kim, and Marty Burbank represent the Korean contingency. Staff represent staff… The rest, who knows and who cares?
“Allyn Lean (filling in for Chi?), Adam Moore, Michael Hurst, and Ted Kim. Interesting that you left these people off of your list…why???”
Because I didn’t know who they are. And it probably doesn’t matter.
Right on Cynthia. Im sitting in a home built in Circa 1887. It’s not the home or buildings fault. It is the owner. As long as you keep on top of repairs they do last a life time(s) The house next door is single wall construction two story house built in circa 1884. The houses were almost torn down but the city council stopped that and made a nice historical district out of them. They also include the Stage Stop Hotel (1800’s) and the First Congreagational Church of Buena Park (1891) I have also stayed in flats in england from the same era. I have had a number of friends from Wales stay with me here in BP and wonder why the Americans always want to tear down anything approching 100 years?
Very cool, I would love to see it some time. BTW since we are talking old houses here is a shameless plug for a Historic Home Tour in Anaheim May 14th and 15th. http://www.anaheimhistoricalsociety.com/2011hometour.htm
sorry about the extra r
First of all, instead of linking to the corporate-owned HB “Independent,” you should’ve linked to left-wing Fringer and occasional OJ contributor John Earl’s February Surf City Voice article on the same subject: http://www.surfcityvoice.org/2011/02/surf-citys-alcoholic-downtown-build-it-and-they-will-drink-and-drive/
As I lived in that area several years, I wonder if you guys have noticed THIS related plague: Gangs of young drunk male assholes who go around beating the shit out of any lone guy they see walking down the street late at night, and then kicking them in the face when they’re down. Happened to my brother (who’s a tough guy) and then my son a few months later.
The good (and remarkable) news is I tracked down the three guys who beat up my son – they all went to jail, and two of them are dead now. *schadenfreude* Kyle Arruda,Travis Ravelo, and Brandon Maw (Brandon still alive – watch your back dude!)
Cynthia, The Curator, et al…
As I said, I like old buildings. I don’t want them torn down for the sake of something newer. My original question was intended to be more pragmatic, but I’ll get to that in a second.
To me, your views seem a narrowminded because most property owners are not “lazy” or “idiots” – rather, they can’t afford the repairs and upkeep. It’s amazing how expensive a seemingly minor job costs these days. You can burn through $5,000 – 10,000 – 20,000 at the blink of an eye.
So back to my original thought. In response, Cynthia wrote: “How long do you preserve an old building? For as long as it takes!” To which I respond: HOW do you propose to do this? When/if the property owner throws up his arms in frustration, are you suggesting taxpayers 1) Subsidize repairs and maintenance, or 2) Purchase the property outright? Neither?
The property owner should have the prerogative to decide how his/her building is maintained long term. The government should not be strong-arming businesses to maintain their buildings to a certain standard because residents are clinging to it’s sentimental value.
Curators require a degree that I do not hold. I am a simple historian, no more. How about we take out the history factor and then ask, how long do we require property owners to maintain their properties? The answer is the same no matter what age. As long as one owns property one is obligated to maintain it. Having a roof leak so badly it creates a mold situation is not exclusive to historic properties, it can happen with a relatively new one when the owner fails to make timely repairs. Maintenance is factored into the cost of ownership just like taxes and insurance. If you can’t keep up, sell the property to someone who can. That is not a preservation thing, that is a quality of life thing for anyone who lives or works near to a property not being kept up. My sympathy light is out, And yes, I know how fast costs can add up, ask anyone here who has been to the Ward Family Money Pit and Gardens (visit the gift shop)
Meanwhile the excuse that old buildings must be torn down because they are unsafe is a crock. They used that argument in Anaheim, and when it came time to tear down the old Martenet and SQR buildings, the wrecking ball BOUNCED OFF THE BRICK! Every time I see that commercial where they use a giant stuffed bunny on a crane in place of a wrecking ball I think of our downtown. Same effect. They damn near had to dynamite the buildings to get them out of the way of “progress.” So back to the original post. Fullerton still has a beautiful downtown, I would love to see the people of your fine community take a stand for all that is decent and replace the less desirable businesses with those that benefit all inhabitants. Start by not subsidizing the bad behavior of a few, and demand Police protection. Your Council is so paralyzed from fear of a lawsuit that they just let Chevron walk on them, how about the lawsuit resulting from someone being harmed from the bad behavior they KNOW is taking place downtown that they are not preventing? Then encourage good behavior by frequenting the businesses that bring the type of patrons you prefer.
Good luck.
Not sure I get the dichotomy here, a building owner couldn’t afford to maintain it yet he could afford to replace it entirely?
“The government should not be strong-arming businesses to maintain their buildings to a certain standard because residents are clinging to it’s sentimental value.”
Great, but there are other reasons the owners should be required to maintain their buildings to a certain minimum standard of fitness.
Nipsey:
> Not sure I get the dichotomy here, a building owner
> couldn’t afford to maintain it yet he could afford to
> replace it entirely?
No, that was the estimated cost if the City hadn’t gone through with their plans to bulldoze Brea.
> Great, but there are other reasons the owners
> should be required to maintain their buildings to a
> certain minimum standard of fitness.
True, but there are different ways to approach this. Do you maintain a structure to last 75 years or 500 years?
Cynthis essentially answered this already, but maintenance is maintenance; if you keep a structure in good shape, addressing faults promptly as they happen, then there’s really no point where this strategy stops working.
Again, this is in the context of older structures built with actual building materials. As for styrofoam doodads smeared with a thin crust of plasticized stucco, who knows. I’m pretty sure the dismal mega-apartments the City has allowed to be built around downtown will self destruct no matter what anyone does to them, so at least we have that.
“so at least we have that.”
Too true. In 30 years those buildings may very well be targeted by the Redevelopment Agency as hopeless blight.
It’s much like our permanent war economy, isn’t it? The government provides stimulus capital based on a perceived need, then pumps it into private businesses who provide jobs.
Vern Nelson said:
The good (and remarkable) news is I tracked down the three guys who beat up my son – they all went to jail, and two of them are dead now. *schadenfreude* Kyle Arruda,Travis Ravelo, and Brandon Maw (Brandon still alive – watch your back dude!)
Vern Nelson, you are a blood thirsty animal. Kyle and Travis were loved by those who love them. Who are you to celebrate their untimely deaths. Shame on you!
“Kyle and Travis were loved by those who love them.”
Sound like worthless white trash to me.
Vern Nelson is the type of violent animal who would love to have a CCW. Thank you for showing your true colors, this is the type of violent hate speech this blog is known for.
The threat to Brandon Maw has been reported to law enforcement.
Brandon Maw? Is this some sort of joke?
Silly, he was trying to help Brandon. Why else would you tell him to keep an eye open for trouble.
Kops to the reskue!
Aren’t you the guy that threatened cops on this blog? Go take a short walk on a long pier. And by that I mean stay there, halfway down the pier, till you freeze.
Yes, Redevelopment is built to be perpetual. The project areas never seem to sunset. They just go on and on and on. Ad infinitum, ad nauseam. There’s always more to do. A lot has been accomplished, and success is right around the corner.
We’ve done posts on this topic. Council candidates are always taking credit for “revitalizing” things; and yet the money keeps being laddled out forever. The process never ends.
And rust never sleeps.
Yes, it’s better to burn out than to fade away…
That’s a local tradition too, I hear.
What happened to the good ol’ days when DTF was nothing but pawn shops as far as the eye could see?
I remember back when a guy could off-load some stolen audio equipment with ease!
Now all we have are the best nightlife hot spots in North OC, great restaurants and successful bars.
Gonzo, should the taxpayers have to foot the bill for these things?
Depends on what you mean by “these things”. Taxpayers should not be footing the bill for things like redevelopment and slapping brick veneer onto historical buildings. I think we could still probably enjoy a great downtown without those kinds of wasteful expenditures.
I have to believe that it’s possible to build a vibrant downtown area that supports successful businesses and attracts cash from out-of-towners without more wasteful redevelopment. There must be some middle ground in between pawn shop row and the current state of affairs.
Vibrant?! A bunch of out of town hoodlums fighting, puking, urinating, drunk-driving? It’s great for the bar owners who are getting subsidized services. And it’s chewing up General Fund Revenue like Doc HeeHaw at an all-you-can eat buffet.
The worst part is it’s not even a real downtown. After all the redevelopment you have a high density residential zone and almost no real commercial businesses except for restaurants masquerading as bars.
While there are plenty of examples of “out of town hoodlums fighting, puking, urinating and drunk driving”, I don’t think that’s a fair description of DTF on any given night (are we talking about DTF or DTHB right now?).
A degree of petty criminality is going to be inherent anywhere groups of people congregate with alcohol present; that’s probably unavoidable. All I’m saying is that we shouldn’t throw out the baby with the bath water.
I understand that, at the current rate, the costs of policing the area exceeds the revenue generated by the businesses there. The solution is not, however, to kill the local business and return to the old days of pawn shops and tumble weeds. I could get behind any ideas that would reduce the costs of policing the area.
“All I’m saying is that we shouldn’t throw out the baby with the bath water.”
Hey, boy, that’s my line!
Gonzo, I like to think that there is a successful formula for a healthy and profitable mix of businesses downtown. It wasn’t just pawn shops before. There was a sizable sporting goods shop on Commonwealth, but many retailers have been driven out by lease rates that have risen in response to higher rents bars can pay. Of course, the bars couldn’t make their rents unless we the taxpayers picked up the bill for street cleanup, four extra police officers hired just for downtown, water improvements to handle greater occupancy, bricked pavers and other street improvements, etc.
Savage, that sporting goods store was run by the property owner, one of the biggest Redevelopment pimps in Fullerton. He realized there was a lot more to be gained playing Redevelopment Monopoly than running a real business.
REDEVELOPMENT IS POISON.
The store you are speaking of ran its life cycle. It was time for it to die like all the other stores of that type. It may be true about the redevelopment, but that store had seen better days.
I heard that the store moved to a place with cheaper rent elsewhere. The effect is the same, owner or not. Redevelopment underwrites favored business for an outcome that benefits a few people at the expense of the rest of us.
You heard? I heard you were a petafile.
Did you mean pedophile? Maybe he has a fear of PETA (people for the ethical treatment of animals) i which case you are correct.
You might as well give up on yearning for the glory days of downtown retail. The days of selling whozits and whatzits in a store are mostly dead, killed by Amazon, eBay and some big box stores. Most of what’s left are hobby clothing businesses operating at a loss just to give the wifey something to do.
touche
I am a FBI informant. Submit any lead regarding false allegations/plants of drugs, etc.
sisler.william@yahoo.com