Sunday Mornin’ Comin’ Down…
I discovered this hanging from my door knob this morning, courtesy of the Fullerton Recall team. Yowzer! Look down there at the bottom of the salary side: Thomas Basham – the alleged Watch Commander who watched his boys beat Kelly Thomas to death. And on the pension side get a load of #2: Former City Manager, and anti-recall contributor, Chris Meyer who pulled in $171K in pension last year. He sure has lots of reasons to back the Three Bald Tires.
I would like to see the whole list that these door hangers show — I know some of these folks personally, and am shocked!!!
#1 on the list should be Bushala’s nephew who is also a cop. How much does he make a year Tony?
Hard to argue with the numbers. Out of control salaries and a growing pension debt.
And remember this: in 2008 HeeHaw and Bankhead tried to jack up pensions along with Quirk and Keller.
I love how these salaries are public knowledge and yet people still say things like “they don’t make that much” it’s public knowledge.
Is Matthew Rowe the same Matt Rowe that is running? Even if it isn’t he’s in trouble
I don’t believe the Matthew Rowe on the hanger is the same person running in the election.
Matt Rowe (the candidate) works in the aerospace industry:
“Today, Matt is a senior engineer and project manager in Honeywell’s aerospace business unit.”
Source:
http://rowe4fullerton.com/
I don’t think it is going to matter. Thank Fullerton Taxpayers for helping us to dodge that bullet.
“Dodge that bullet”?
Matt seems to really have some enemies, who only attack him anonymously, and never state any kind of valid reason for their bitterness against him. I would hate to think that one of Matt’s opponents is stooping to this level. Care to out yourself or explain your position? Which of Matt’s policies are so irksome?
Whether you vote for him or not, or agree with all his positions or not, Matt is a person of integrity and character. I guess that’s why some people hate him so much.
The word HATE gets used a lot, inappropriately I think. “Matt” is hated because of integrity, cops think we hate them if we disagree with them, etc., etc. on and on. Think about it can’t we dislike or disagree, or whatever without HATING? I know I can. The world is not black or white, it’s shades of gray, much as those who use the word hate will deny.
Ok, dislike him rather than hate. And I’m certainly not claiming it’s Barry doing it.
Levinson has been attacking Rowe from day one on the FFFF site because he sees his failed campaign withering while Rowe’s has been gaining the rightful momentum it deserves. Rowe is honorable and has vision. Levinson is just another establishment hack that is on the ticket, will be in November, and any election Fullerton has so as to prop his angry ego.
Thanks for the support; however, I would not agree with the characterization of Barry Levinson. Barry has run a clean campaign to the best of my knowledge.
…clean campaign against me, I should say. The deceptive slate mailers were not so clean.
Slate mailers are what they are, Matt go get a tissue and dry those tears.
Matt is a binge drinker and will continue to support a drunk, bar filled downtown. He has even said he believes in the FPD.
He might be fine as a middle management hack but what we need is real leadership and experience. Let’s get someone who has been successful and built their own business. Levinson might not be perfect but he is a better option.
What is Matt going to do when he gets elected cry because no one likes his choices or bend to what is wrong just because it is popular? He actions in the campaign prove to me he should never be elected.
…and the smear campaign from anonymous cowards continues.
Levinson is NOT a better option. attacks on a personal level just show how he is lacking in leadership and civic acumen. his public diatribes during public comments are filled with me me me. he knows nothing of community and responsibility. it is all a blame game. what will he honestly do if he is elected and has to take a vote. he will have no one to blame anymore and will have to defend his votes… which will only be rubberstamping Whitakers. Sebourn, Kiger and Levinson are votes for the establishment. Rowe is fighting the good fight. Voting for Rowe is a vote for Fullerton!
This is just flat-out ridiculous. I’ve had dinner with Matt (Tony Bushala and others were also there) and I had considerably more drinks than he did. And I’m not a binge drinker. He is as critical of FPD as the rest of us. And while I am not particularly pro-military, Matt’s military experience is both real and relevant. I am not going to say I support him over Levinson since I think both would do what needs to be done with the FPD, and either is a good choice, but I think it is ridiculous that he is being subjected to these anonymous attacks here in a way that no other candidates are. Its pretty pathetic.
stop with the tears the river is a flooding
Yeah that’s just delightfully convenient. Man, people just can’t disappoint you fast enough..
That’s the beauty of disclosed public salaries and videos. Both allow the viewer to make their own call on what’s right and wrong.
I can assure everyone here that the Matthew Rowe listed on the door hanger is not the same one that is running.
Matt Rowe (the candidate) works in aerospace and I can guarantee does not make $153,000 per year.
Matthew Rowe is a Fullerton Police Officer. Don’t let the door hanger confuse you.
Why not, that’s exactly what it was supposed to do.
There is a police officer with the same name as me in FPD. It is terribly unfortunate that these door hangars were allowed to go out with such an obvious detail that will confuse a lot of voters. I don’t work for the city. I work for Honeywell aerospace, and I wish my salary were that high.
Matt
Then you should of been a cop.
LOL. I used to work for the aerospace industry a few years ago with some really, really sharp people. At one point the team I worked on was comprised of graduates from MIT, Cal, UCLA, RPI, Rice University, etc. It was a pretty amazing team.
I wish our salaries could match what they pay some of thug cops at FPD. High School diploma, a pair of fists and the ‘Ramos’ double-chin is all you need to qualify these days.
I look at the pensions for Chris Meyer, the current salary for Joe Felz, etc…wow, what a joke!!!
Like a said you should of been a cop.
Matt, it may be terribly unfortunate that you have the same name as one of the highly paid cops but you cant blame anyone for that.
Can we please limit our complaints about this site to statement which are actually false rather than those which one of you takes some twisted meaning from?
I can assure you that if there was a cop named “Travis Kiger”, the door hanger would have an asterisk next to the name noting that this is NOT the same person running for city council.
So yes, Matt’s complaint/concern is legit.
+1, and yes it’s just so terribly unfortunate. Way to be condescending, Hollis.
oh boo who
There should have been a note/asterisk next to the “Rowe” employee. But I doubt many were confused; that would require them to actually read all of the names. That one name will have no influence on the votes Matt has worked HARD to EARN.
I’m not complaining about the site.
If these things were vetted properly, there wouldn’t be a problem. How hard is it to clarify something like this? You call it complaining; I call it setting the record straight. Who else is going to do it? I don’t have Bushala money or Chaffee money. I don’t need your sympathy. I just need people to know the facts. I’m just trying to serve my city and do what I believe to be right. Some people apparently have a real problem with that. None of these anonymous cowards who makes accusations about me has ever approached me in person. It just shows how sleazy politics are at every level. You get the government you deserve.
Matt
For your own piece of mind, find the source document for this door hanger.
For a police officer to earn that amount of money, he would need to be higher up the chain of command
If you’re following the election, the name just jumps out at you. Sleazy. I almost sent you a WTF? e-mail, and I know that you work elsewhere.
Maybe Chris Thompson can send out an e-mail to everyone explaining the possible misconception.
Really? Did it jump out to you up there in Brea? I doubt it.
Mr. Diamond, from now on, in order to assist you properly, please submit current links or any type of documented proof you may have regarding any of any of your allegations.
The only allegation in the above comment is “sleazy” and the proof is in the photo. As someone notes below, if Fullerton had a police officer named “Travis Kiger” that could easily be confused with the candidate, that employee’s name would not appear in this mailer. Do you dispute that, mystery man?
Mr. Diamond, In order to get assistance, you will still need to attach proof and written documentation if you make any sort of statements that accuse another person of anything regardless of your feelings that your information is accurate.
I can just the imagine the chuckles during the proofing the door hanger before it was sent to print. Totally wrong to include that name without an asterisk. And with regards to the Matt bashing on this forum, makes me more confident about giving Matt my vote. My husband and Mom are voting for him, too. I can only assume it’s coming from the other side.
Then you should HAVE been a cop.
U SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABORTED
YOU CONDA’SENDIN NUT JOB……….MMMME GRAMMER NAZI ME MAKE FEEL LIKE SMART T.A. CORRECTIN ALL THEM UN-INTELLECTUALS
We are growing very, very tired of correcting you on your mistakes Mr. Doe. We urge you to please get help, in whatever way possible.
YEP!!
I would like to comment about how impressed I am with the graphic quality of the various “Yes Recall” campaign fliers. Graphics matter. I think the quality of your graphics really helps convey your message to people. Good job!
A quick observation… there are only TWO “bald tires.” The other one still has quite a bit of tread left. HAAA!
That tire has lost most of it’s screws.
tires got skrews?
Something is holding my tire to my car- whatever those are called, he’s missing most of his.
he is missing his LUG NUTZ
That sounds even better-thanks
and ran over some skrews, and is almost out of air
Where is the asshole Grammar Police on this comment????
HIM IS CHEXING HER DICKSXENARY’
HEY JON DO
YOUR A TWAT
Same names and all…In glancing at the oc register I was reading the story about woman reverses into oncoming traffic. The story is dated 6-2. It names a Sgt. Brent McKinley of the Costa Mesa Pd. Is he related to Pat McKinley?
Sellers has a son who’s an Orange cop. What are the odds?
City Attorney Wayne Winthers said officers attempted to stop Talley for a Vehicle Code violation and he failed to stop. The boy was rollerblading on The City Drive South.
“A struggle ensued and a lawsuit followed,” said Winters, declining to elaborate.
Talley’s attorney, Jamon Hicks of The Cochran Firm, said the boy was listening to his headphones while inline skating in the street when he was approached by four to six police officers, tackled, kicked in the head, beat and shot with a Taser by two different officers. http://www.ocregister.com/articles/officers-356934-talley-hicks.html
The salary levels are quite high but not surprising. what would be interesting to know is the percentage of current revenue is spent on retire benefits.
All of these fat salaries will translate to a lifetime obligation of pension benefits. CALPers is severely underfunded and many Cities in the past few years have not made the full required pension contribution to meet the future benefit obligation of their retirements plans.
Most cities are being strangled off with the obligation to provide the platinum platted benefits to their current and retired employees. No doubt this has effected the ability of Fullerton to pour money into infrastructure.
I was reviewing the Fullerton City website today and find the following curious. Why is the City providing any medical/dental/life insurance and pension benefits to the elected City Council members? The elected council members don’t even qualify as part-time employees (20 hrs per week).
Some Council Members may have medical/dental through current employment or retiree benefits. Duplication of coverage (over-insurance) is money down the rat hole.
The top executives of the City also have access to a $750 medical reimbursement plan for “physicals” to cover their out of pocket medical expenses….like they don’t make enough money to pay for these type of expenses like the rest of us. Under Obamacare, preventive health is covered 100%.
I bet when the layers are peeled back the Citizens will find tax dollars pissed off like no other.
The gross wage figures do not include any pension or benefit payments. Those would push the figures much higher.
The latest independent audit conducted in behalf of CALPers indicates the pension plan underfunded by $51.3 billion and this does not reflect the deferred investment losses from fiscal 2009.
Yet the unsustainable benefits are continued. Its only a matter of time before the other shoe drops.
Those numbers are obscene.
I am disgusted with US for allowing this nonsense to occur. How in the world did these public servants pull such a scam without getting caught? WHY are we paying (overpaying) cops for such a basic job? 200k for a police chief? Thats outrageous. And then we have to pay that for the rest of his life once he retires? Are you kidding me? its criminal. Financially reprehensible. Cut their pay and the pensions in half. period. I am sick of their whining too. Poor overfed, entitled cry babies.
Just increase taxes to pay for tax free pensions and lifetime caddilac health coverage.
I have a better solution…bankruptcy…. have a judge set aside the current benefit formula and establish a new solvent pension payout based upon current assets.
We voted in the city bosses who decided what was good for us. THANK GOD THEY ARE IN CHARGE AND KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR US.
What about the gifts the citizens are required to hand out every week to the FPD.
He has all the qualifications to destroy our city while he robs us. He has my vote.
Everybody running as a recall candidate is an indirect recipient of Tony’s money. Without it, there is no recall and your campaign would not exist right now.
The only way you can get elected is if the other hurdle is cleared first, that being the recall, which Tony continues to pour money into. Another free benefit to you.
Win or lose, after Tuesday, every candidate in this recall election ought to be thanking Tony for the opportunity to run at all. This concept seems lost on you.
So quit your complaining, Matt. It is not Tony’s fault an employee at the FPD has your same name.
Typical Snakes back on the attack.
Like I stated earlier, if there was a cop named “Travis Kriger”, I’m positive that the door hanger would have clearly noted that their is a difference between the candidate and the piggie cop.
Matt is setting the record straight. What part don’t you understand?
Who the hell is Travis Kriger?
I think you’re making this bigger than it really is. I looked at the door hanger multiple times and never caught Matthew Rowe because the last name is shown first and it’s toward the bottom of the list. The salary figures are what catches everyone’s attention anyway.
Ninety-nine percent of the people receiving these door hangers examine them for about ten seconds or less and throw them away.
Added an “r” accidentally. Typing away from on a mobile device.
I’m not making this bigger than what it is. Just pointing out that Matt is setting the record straight and you are on the attack again.
Good job clown boy.
As I said last week, in these final days Matt Rowe should be focusing his efforts on defeating other candidates and ensuring people vote yes on the recall. He’s wasted the last week complaining about Chris and Tony who aren’t candidates in this race.
People who are on the fence about the recall need to know why to vote yes, which candidate to vote for, and more importantly why not to vote for Doug Chaffee.
You’ve said a lot with very little valuable content. Time to shut up clown.
Apparently I made sense because you offered nothing in return. Thanks.
Snakes, maybe you should talk to Tony. We don’t have any animosity toward each other, but that does not mean I can’t set the record straight when I disagree with something he does. Tony was at my friend’s BBQ on Memorial Day, grilling carne asada barefoot and making pico de gallo for everyone. I saw him at the Art Walk the other night. I spoke with him on the phone today about all of this. We can get along and still disagree on things. I don’t think he needs you to instigate on his behalf.
Don’t you see the damage caused by calling out Tony and Chris on Facebook and on your webpage?
Lots of Fullerton residents have spent the last year in a figurative coma, completely oblivious to what’s going on around them. They are now asking questions because of the “Stop Bushala” signs posted around town. If one of them were to visit your webpage and see your gripes about Tony and Chris, it gives credence to the No Recall folks and reinforces a “no” vote. It is self-defeating.
I wish you would focus your efforts on getting McKinley off the council. This and this alone should be the biggest priority for all candidates right now.
If I believe something’s wrong, I call it wrong. It doesn’t matter which “side” it comes from. You talk about working together for the recall and I agree with you on that. I’m not sure why you’ve taken it upon yourself to attack me, other than because I’ve called out Chris and Tony for things that I believe were not right. If I gave people a pass for doing the wrong thing because we liked each other, then I would be Pat McKinley.
Matt
Less complaining, more campaigning.
http://www.traviskiger.com/
Wow Snakes. You sound A LOT like an anti-recall apologist.
FYI– no one owes anyone a thank you for running. It’s a right that comes with being a citizen; it isn’t a privilege bestowed by the wealthy.
I suspect that Mr. Bushala is more likely to thank good candidates for running than to expect a thank you card from each candidate. If you’d like to feed into Mr. Bennett’s hate machine, by all means, continue posting.
You misunderstood my point. We are having a recall election on Tuesday because Tony Bushala made the funds available to make it a reality.
Without the recall, Matt Rowe would have to wait for the November 2012 election to run against Jones or the November 2014 election to run against McKinley or Bankhead.
Every candidate in this recall stands a better chance of being elected because of the recall efforts. After this is over with, voter apathy will settle back in and it will be significantly tougher to run in the future.
No, I think you misunderstand the point– but hey, keep making Larry Bennett’s day.
I misunderstood the point? How?
Of course Matt Rowe or any other candidate has a right to run. But how can you dispute the fact Tony Bushala made it possible to vote these people out much sooner?
You’d have to be a clown to think I support the anti-recall campaign or Larry Bennett. I’m frustrated by Matt Rowe’s refusal to actively campaign against Pat McKinley in these final days.
He fails to see that complaining about Chris and Tony undermines both the recall and his own campaign.
The idea that Matt is opposed to or opposed by either Tony Bushala or Chris Thompson is just false. Chris has made his endorsements clear since the beginning, but not only does he have no animosity towards Matt, he likes him. Tony told me to check out Matt before I knew anything about him, and sung his praises. And Matt clearly appreciates the fact that Tony is funding the recall. They all disagree on some issues as you would expect intelligent, thinking individuals to do. There is no reason for us to be debating the merits of Rowe vs. Levinson, or for that matter Rands vs. Sebourn. Along with Travis and probably even other candidates that I know less about, any of these candidates will try to do what needs to be done to clean up the police issues and other problems Fullerton faces. Look at their platforms and vote your conscience. Let’s stop attacking the candidates and focus on making sure the recall passes.
For Jon Taylor (post number 68) – thanks for the reminder that the important issue is removing three individuals from the positions in which they have served for far too long. Sniping between and about candidates who may replace those three is exactly what the Recall NO individuals want; don’t buy into it!
Amen!
Jon,
Chaffee and a few unnamed others would hurt the City. Rowe, Levinson, Sebourn, Rands, Paden, and Kiger all study the issues and want to REFORM Fullerton.
If you identify yourself as a conservative, vote for Levinson. If you identify as a liberal, vote for Matt. Both want good government and both would be stellar representatives over Patdown McPension.
While a well intended comment, we’d rather that you vote your conscience than voting by a label. Labels like “Conservative” and “Liberal” do not tell the whole story for this election and the candidates (both of them) are deeper than the labels would convene. Read the candidate’s positions and decide for yourself.
Obviously we’re pulling for Matt.
http://www.rowe4fullerton.com
http://www.levinson4reform.com
They can choose between Rowe and Levinson based on whether or not the candidate puts two pages of flyers under the windshield wipers of cars innocently parked on city streets. I presume that as the candidate of “compassion and conviction,” Rower doesn’t do so, right?
You misunderstood my point. We are having a recall election on Tuesday because Tony Bushala made the funds available to make it a reality.
Without the recall, Matt Rowe would have to wait for the November 2012 election to run against Jones or the November 2014 election to run against McKinley or Bankhead.
Every candidate in this recall stands a better chance of being elected because of the recall efforts. After this is over with, voter apathy will settle back in and it will be significantly tougher to run in the future.
Here are the top executive salaries (no safety) as published by the City of Fullerton Numbers don’t quite match and there is no Matthew Rowe on the list of top earners which span from $201K down to $103K
http://www.cityoffullerton.com/civicax/filebank/blobdload.aspx?blobid=6654
I have run a completely clean campaign. I have not directly or indirectly attacked Matt Rowe, period.
I have run on the issues and the fact that I am the most qualified and knowledgable candidate that will be able to turn this city back on the right course. I have an MBA from Boston University with Honors. I understand budgets and can deal intelligently with the financial problems facing this city.
I have been front and center on all the issues (civil rights, police abuse, corruption, budgets, illegal water tax, towing contracts and infrastructure decay to name just a few) facing Fullerton for the last 3 years.
I stand on my record and on my integrity.
Also as a private citizen I along with my wife got the first city law passed in Orange County that protects children from predatory child sex offenders (Ordinance No 3149).
Now 12 other OC cities have followed suit as well as the County of Orange. Another 12 cities are looking into following Fullerton’s lead on this issue.
As a current Parks and Recreation Commissioner, I am extremely proud of the fact that I helped get the Independence Skate Park reopened effective June 15th, the same day school lets out for the summer.
My accomplishments, my record and my integrity speak for themselves!
Now the drug dealing, robberies, assaults and vandalism will be back at the skate park. Isn’t that the reason it was closed in the first place?
As a Council candidate please tell us what measures have been taken to ensure the safety of the public when the skate park reopens?
If you check the city council meeting minutes from the first week of May, you’ll see that the skateboard park will be monitored by city staff already stationed at Independence Park, as well as a grass roots parents group of skateboarders who will working hand in hand with the city staff to ensure the safety and welfare of all participants.
I believe that there was also talk of using a closed-circuit camera at the skateboard park as a 24/7 monitor of illicit activities.
And your alternative to opening the parks for our kids to play in is???
I’m not opposed to parks, just the skate park. It was built in a horrible spot in the park, in the back, by the tracks. That just invites shennanagins. Put it in the front of the park, away from the railroad tracks and more visible to the general public where there is less likely of a chance for crime.
But I’m sure that grass roots parents group will take care of business. Once they see the clientele they won’t come back. There are kids and criminals from age 7-47 that visit the skate park. Good luck with that.
I agree with you that the skateboard park was put in a horrible location, however since the skateboard park is poured concrete, it’s impossible to re-locate it as this point.
The grass roots organization is composed of parents of the same youths that frequent the skateboard park.
I also believe that the skateboard park group and the city council have both agreed that the skateboard park needed to be a healthy environment for all ages or risk being closed for good.
I actually thought that both the Parks and Recreation group and the parents of the skateboarders worked extremely hard to work towards a solution that would best serve our children.
`Rule one, don’t concede territory to crime.
Wholeheartedly agree Steve. I have worked very hard to change that mindset with each and every municipal employee I have encountered who would tell me that the parks were being locked up due to criminal behavior?
Let me see, I’m the Fullerton Police Chief, and I have no less than six police officers available on a Saturday to ticket motorists honking in support of Kelly Thomas protesters, yet I don’t have enough police officers available to keep our children safe in our parks?
Drug dealing!!! Tony supports drug dealings so his puppets do as well.
You are such a shame. Tell the truth about your issues dude.
Hey Barry,
Any comment on whether it’s OK to put political flyers on the windshields of cars that unsuspecting owners have parked on the street? Some people think it’s littering. Do you know the law on this? (Do you care what the law is?)
A clean campaign? I don’t think so. The misleading COPS voter’s guide that you Sebourn and Kiger refuse to answer questions about is not a clean campaign. You are tricking people into thinking you have support from law enforcement. It’s a misleading tactic.
matt nobody likes you, your gonna lose anyhow NEXT
“Matt, nobody like you, you ARE going to lose anyWAY.”
Mr. Pooped a Matt – please ensure that in the future you are using the correct version of ‘your or you’re.Your version indicates possession, in this case ‘you are going to lose’ the contraction ‘you’re’ would have been appropriate..
By stating ‘your gonna lose’ you are indicating that Matt owns ‘gonna lose’, which we are fairly certain he does not.
Also, in the future please refrain from slang such as ‘gonna’. It makes you sound below average intelligence.
U R
Sure you have Barry. Sure you have. Chances are if Bushala’s 3 stooges get elected in a few years you will all be facing charges from the DA along with Tony and Chris.
What makes you think Barry hasn’t? I have been to several city council meetings. The one that hits me is the truck routes for my business in Fullerton. I was only thinking about the experiences that I face which is police harrassment. They stop me for truck route violation when I had good reason to be there. I live there! To only waste more time to inspect my truck looking for more violations.
Barry actually went up to talk about the messed up truck routes themselves. How there isn’t much to come in and out of the city. How much time and energy is wasted going around the city because of the truck routes. I thought Barry was a truck driver until I found out that he is actually a candidate for the city recall. Why did Barry do that? I don’t know is Bushala a truck driver/blue collar worker? I tell you what though, I feel like he could be a voice for us, blue collar workers. He exactly what we need.
You can ride a bike over a street for a million years and not damage it; you can drive a fully-laden truck over a street just once and damage it. Y’all know where potholes and such come from? It’s not only the weather.
I’m fine with your having truck routes. Are you fine with paying for the expected damage that driving especially non-empty trucks on city streets causes? That’s why they’re inspecting you, you know.
I doubt that Levinson even understands the issue at hand. It’s government so it’s bad — except when it’s keeping someone who may have just pled guilty to a suspended sentence for urinating in public away from his neighborhood. Then government is good.
What’s a fully laden truck? My F450 doesn’t damage the road. I got big tires unlike those rubber band tires where the rims hitting potholes create more damage than my truck tires.
“I’m fine with your having truck routes. Are you fine with paying for the expected damage that driving especially non-empty trucks on city streets causes? That’s why they’re inspecting you, you know.”
No, I don’t know. What damage? I am not damaging anything on the street. All I know everytime I get pulled over because I am not on a truck route then the inspection happens everytime! I don’t speed, run red lights, or nothing like that. So answer me this, how the fuck do I get out of my street that I live on if it is a not a truck route?
Wait — this is an F-450 rather than a commercial truck? OK, that’s not as implausible.
I checked the specs. It’s an eight-ton truck and will accept a payload of between 4-5 tons. Four tires, so that’s two tons per tire without a load and maybe 3 tons with a load. Even for 225/70R19.5Fs, that’s a lot of weight per square inch, even without considering the force of going over bumps, etc.
You may be right that your truck doesn’t damage the road — but can you go through how you calculated that? Do you think that your assertion should be enough? If you can show that even bearing three tons per tire, your truck would not be damaging the road, then you should be able to go to court and get an order for them not to harass you. But it seems to me that you haven’t done the math — and maybe that you don’t even realize that there is math to do.
Your not running red lights has nothing to do with it. (Your speeding has a little to do with it, but not as much as the sheer weight and as I recall the suspension.)
You’re not running for office, so if you don’t get that they might have a real and legitimate reason to inspect you when you’re off of a truck route, that’s not such a big deal. If Levinson doesn’t get it, and spoke to the Council without knowing what the hell he was talking about, that is a big deal.
Worst case: you would not be able to drive an F-450 — or at least one carrying more than a certain weight — down the street because of the damage you’d do to it. That would be a shame — but lots of people can’t drive one. If you were actually doing damage to the street, you’d have to get another vehicle, because it’s not fair to make everyone else pay for your avoidable damage. Seriously, do the math.
Well, I suppose you could be right. Too bad that was not the issue as I was trying to saying from the beginning. I know why truck routes are necessary, most every city has them. I have seen what happens to streets when a truck that is too heavy for that steet goes through. If you really care about the issue research this. hope it works.
http://fullerton.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=346
city council meeting, May 1st 2012, Item#8 about 5:05:55. look at what is being presented and look at public comments. I don’t care what you say, what Mr. Levinson said needed to be said.
I can’t tell if you’re being defensive or out of touch will reality. You know exactly how to find Tony or Chris.
Instead of taking your complaints directly to them, you chose to publicly embarrass them, and by extension, bring bad publicity to the recall campaign. This is exactly what the anti-recall campaign wants, to make Tony and Chris look bad. Not cool.
There’s a time and place for everything and you continue to choose poorly. Let’s hope it doesn’t backfire come Tuesday.
I agree with Snakes on this point.
Matt said in a post a couple of days ago directed at me, that Matt had been over to Chris’s house, and even knew his personal cell phone number, yet instead of going over and talking with Chris personally, as he always accuses us of, Matt instead chose to call Chris out here on FFFF by posting the same message in several topics on the FFFF blog.
Not cool IMHO.
It’s time for Matt to move. We don’t want you in Fullerton.
You know, this sort of anonymous demand just doesn’t have the same effect without the burning cross on his lawn.
Its probably about time to look up this guy’s IP address.
Will, you all just SHUT UP. This is a blog and that’s all. Don’t make me think, that I made a mistake by voting Yes on the recall. And BTW, most of Fullerton residents do not know what’s going on.
Sorry
Obviously your request is denied.
I encourage you to vote your conscience. Vote no on the recall if you think that McKinley,Bankhead, and Jones have done a good job.
Vote yes on the recall if you want to see change.
I’m not running for elected office, so I’m not exactly sure how I would personally influence your vote on the recall?
I’m not running for elected office
You are right FL, I forgot you don’t live in Fullerton. I guess I have been reading too much on FFFF. I forgot it’s only entertainment.
Who said that I don’t live in Fullerton?
You know what happens when you ass/u/me don’t you?
sorry my response posted as “anonymous” Like I said earlier…
1) I do live in Fullerton.
2) I am not running for elected office.
I’ve got no beef with people speaking their minds. To me this blog is like an online version of the banter you hear in a barber shop. Strictly people venting their own opinions. All good.
I’m with cg on this. It’s useless talking with Snakes and Fullerton Loser. Both of you need to choke on a bowl cocks.
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
And you have real issues. I have a little problem with what you serve for a meal. Really “I EAT GREG”…you must be longing for something, or the big one. It’s OK, to be Gay.
It used to be “I Eat Grits”, then Greg Diamond came along. I didn’t want to change to “I Hate Greg”, so I just changed to “I Eat Greg”. Cannibalize over patronize. 🙂 Sorry your have a problem with my handle, one among the many silly ones here in FFFF.
LOL, I’m not gay and I do t have issues. I’m just a passionate person for Fulleton.
“Really”… Soooo cliche.
I was OK with your username until that guy in Miami at someone’s face. Now I’m a little worried.
The worst thing about it is seeing your name paired with “I Pooped a Matt.” That’s got to be a new low.
It’s encouraging to see that you can laugh at this stuff Greg Diamond.
Our sense of humor is usually the first of our senses to go and IMHO the most vital.
My secret is: actually enjoy coming here. I disagree with half of the policies promoted and much of the nastiness, but it gives me a chance to do funny rants online that I wouldn’t have in most political environments. Takes me back to my college days. And I just love it when people here announce when they’re voting for Bob Huff to spite me. I want them to tattoo his name on their arm if they really want to get to me. heh.
I enjoy reading your posts. You bring a refreshing perspective to an otherwise one side dialogue.
I’m going to change it to “I like Greg” or “I appreciate Greg”. But not in a gay way like someone accused me of.
No joke. I have come to appreciate your comments/posts.
It was hard for me to admit it, but I agree with you more and more.
You should be able to compromise, something like “I Huff Greg.”
Wow. Those are great glossy hit pieces. My compliments to the designer. I suspect that the brains behind the operation has some emotional attachment to the recall. That piece cuts right to the bone and it should be the final direct hit that sinks their boats. Nice job!
First experience with ” I eat…..” Sly Stallones character in the “Lords of Flatbush” response to a veiled threat ” I eat, ave. J!” definetly no efeminate overtones, not that there’s anything wrong with it!
You ffffer are so delusional
tears for fears – First and foremost we are upset that you would disgrace a wonderful band such as Tears for Fears by using them as your handle, but that’s beyond the point.
Please make sure that when you are referring to a group of people such as FFFF’ers that the correct pluralization is utilized. In this case, FFFF’ers is plural, since there are more than one. Your usage of FFFFer denotes only one member, which is untrue.
Also, please remember to use proper punctuation, such as ending your sentences with a period (.) and using apostrophes between the last ‘F’ and the ‘ers’.
Thank you for your understanding regarding this important matter.
HEY GRAMMAR FAG,
SHUT THE FUDGE UP, YOU STUPID WANNABE TEACHERS ASSISTANT.
ONLY PUSSYS CARE ABOUT YOUR GAY ASS “PROPER GRAMMAR” THIS IS A BLOG NOT ENGLISH 101 DICK HEAD……………
BTW TEARS FOR FEARS IS QUEER FO SURE
Mr. Pooped a Matt,
Please note that you don’t need to use all caps in a sentence – it sounds like you’re shouting.
Also, proper grammar is very important in today’s world, you’d be surprised to learn how many occupations require that employees know correct spelling, syntax and grammar.
We don’t understand your familiarity with ‘ENGLISH 101’ however, as it appears you yourself have not attended a college course and therefore should have no knowledge of what ‘101’ refers to. Perhaps you saw it on a television show about college students?
Also note that the correct spelling of ‘FO’ is actually ‘for’.
Hope this helps.
CAPS DOWN,
O’ I’ B’ SHOUTING.
BOLLUCKS TO YOUR GRAMAR!!!
HOPE THAT’ HELPS…MY BAD
DAT HELPS………..YOUR PROB A COLLEDGE GRAD THAT CANT FINDA JOB,AND STILL LIVEN’ WIT MOMMY,,,,,?STILL SUCKING ON THAT TEET
Mr. Pooped a Matt,
When using a british term such as ‘bollocks’ please make sure you spell it correctly, lest you offend one of America’s greatest allies.
Also, there is no need for personal attacks. We will point out that all members of The Grammar Police are gainfully employed and do not in fact – as you so eloquently put it “still liven wit mommy”.
On a final note, ‘colledge’ is actually spelled ‘college’
u liven wit your mommy and you know it
Mr. Pooped a Matt:
Please read the following corrections and take the appropriate steps to correct these mistakes in the future.
Original sentence: u liven wit your mommy and you know it
Corrected sentence: You live with your mommy and you know it.
Though we don’t agree with your sentence structure and word choice we are proud of you because this may have been your most complete sentence yet.
LOL funny!
nope tahts wrong i jest axed my 5th grade teacher an she said YOUR wrong
Mr. Pooped a Matt:
Though we are growing very tired of correcting you, we will continue to do so for as long as it takes.
We believe what you meant to say was “No, that’s wrong. I just asked my fifth grade teacher and she said you’re wrong.”
We aren’t sure what you we referring to as being wrong, but please remember again to be mindful of the proper usage of the contracting you’re (you are). The Grammar Police do not own ‘wrong’ therefore any reference to ‘your wrong’ denotes that wrong is ours. We can assure you Mr. Pooped a Matt that this is not the case.
In the spirit of transparency, allow us to correct the following errors from our last post.
1) “We aren’t sure what you WERE referring to…..”
2) Contracting should read ‘contraction’
Even The Grammar Police make mistakes sometimes, but we will always be the first to admit it.
and it’s “teat” not teet – you missed that one
“Also, proper grammar is very important in today’s world, you’d be surprised to learn how many occupations require that employees know correct spelling, syntax and grammar”.
This is a common mistake. You have incorrectly linked two complete sentences with a comma. You should write:
Also, proper grammar is very important in today’s world (full stop)
(new sentence) You’d be surprised to learn how many occupations require that employees know correct spelling, syntax and grammar.
It’s like you’ve never even heard of a semicolon. You’d be surprised to learn how often they come in handy.
I thoroughly enjoy the postings of the Grammar Police and can assure you that I am no where close to being a pussy.
YEAH YOU ARE
Thank you Mr. Lover.
We appreciate your support during these dark times.
We are also in the process of printing bumper stickers that say “I support the Grammar Police”. Perhaps you’d be interested in one.
Absolutely. Send me the catalog. I’ve heard that the T-shirts and coffee mugs are a must have.
Hey I like it!!
How about a fake charity, too? You send us some money (non-tax deductible, of course – it goes to the Grammar Police Officer’s Association) and we send you a neat decal for your car window that may just help if you are ever pulled over for erroneously conjugating a verb.
I’m for it-I’m requesting a ball cap with a donut embroidered on it
Too bad these yip yaps parents did not care enough, to hire a tutor for them, otherwise, you might not be have to save them from themselves so often. Sadly, Grammer Police, noble as your efforts may be, you can’t fix stupid…and homophobic as well?! Oi vey, that’s no way to go through life.
It’s “oy”.
Sheesh, goyim..
We will also be printing Yiddish Police bumperstickers, shirts, and mugs as well.
Mr. Nomad,
Unfortunately, tutoring has not yet proven an effective way to treat schizophrenia, but we appreciate your input and can guarantee you that us at the American Psychological Association always welcome eedback from readers like you
welcome EEDBACK?
oh’ snap wherez the grammar goD @?
dem psych police need a talking down too
Nor has beating helpless drifters to death.
:sigh:
I stand corrected Yid, thanks for the tutorial.
Those figures are for senior officials in the department with lots of years served. The average cop starts out around $30-$50K, depending on the area. Maybe they are overpaid, considering the education required, but they do risk their lives and have to deal with difficult, dangerous people daily.
Their own finger and gun is a far worse threat.
So is the excessive eating and no exercise
A rookie may start at 50K but it escalates fast. Kelly Mejia the 25 year old computer thief made over $85,000!
P.S. the most dangerous people the cops have to deal with are each other. Notice how the blind left eye Cicinelli tased Hampton?
Deadly drivers. Cars are worst than the criminals statistically.
Especially when driving with 1 eye.
fuck jay, but there is alot of half blind people out there. And they all got drivers license. My uncle had a class A to drive beg rigs.
If possible, could you lie down in the street and ask your uncle to drive his “beg rig” over you repeatedly? Thanks in advance.
is that a threat!!!
Is that a question?
Yes Murder Rate is astronomical.
Fullerton (a lot of out of towners) Murder Rate 1 or 2 per 100,000 pop.
FPD Murder rate could be as low as 1 or more per 10 or less pop. if you include chargeables.
re: risking their lives
Aproximately 700,000 cops on the street nationwide. In 2010, for example, 153 officers died on the job nationwide, but the FBI data on which the NY Times based its analysis counted 56 officers “feloniously killed” that year.
Here are the data for 2012 so far compared to last year via the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund:
Law Enforcement Officer Fatalities
Preliminary 2012 Numbers
April 11, 2012
2012 2011 % Change
Total Fatalities 31 59 -47%
Firearms-related 11 26 -58%
Traffic-related 12 19 -37%
Other Causes 8 14 -43%
Re dealing with dangerous and difficult people every day, actually most times that’s not true and when it is many times it’s because the cop escalated the encounter.
The DA will squash this for the cop union. Sad but that’s the way it is.
Its not 2011 anymore. I doubt he wants the heat.
Fullerton residents divided as City Council recall election nears
“McKinley, who served as Fullerton’s police chief for 16 years, said the council had done all it could in the aftermath of the Thomas incident, and the officers, “all of them that did anything wrong,” have been disciplined.
“The rest is all just a Bushala thing. He was looking for some incident to take on the City Council and he found his incident,” McKinley said. “He wants to be king.”
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fullerton-kelly-thomas-20120604,0,5774170.story
He really feels he did all he could by going to the media and announcing that facial injuries arent life threatening, declaring at one of his public Shebear seminars that what officer Rincon did was not dangerous, just inappropriate touching and allowing an illegal water tax, according to prop 218 (that he and the other recallees refuse to even research) to continue on peoples’s water bills. along with countless other things they let pass for years? I think a recall for these no nothings and do nothings, who should have never been put in office in the first place, has been way overdue.
Naturally, Mckinley’s (and the other two) MO since the recall began was to play the victim of a vengeful mob.
I think they are all excuse makers for their own bad behaviors and for other’s as well.
More reason to vote YES on the recall.
Yep, recall has been way way overdue for these 3 blank staring, fast talking, knowers of nothing, empty suits.
Kelly Thomas was the straw that broke the camel’s back as I see it.
“all of them that did anything wrong,” have been disciplined.”
Another McKinley lie.
With the police assimulating the military, why not structure their pay & benefits to the same amounts. This would include the same retirement structure.
We send an E-3 (pay grade) to IRAQ/AFGHANISTAN for a year tour which is in harms way every day more than any cop will see in his/her entire career.
All I want,if I am killed is my own personal body bag.
Good job Recall folks. Fullertons not for sale? Fullerton has been sold by these politicians and deals with developers. Just look at the sidewalk in front of Florentines place at Harbor and Commnwealth. How did he steal 6′ of sidewalk from us? Look at all the anti recall signs in the rich neighborhoods around town. I haven’t seen them in the ghetto where I live…..
Good luck with the recall tomorrow.
“God’s wounds.” It was considered an profane curse in Shakespeare’s day, along with other of his curses like “‘Sblood!” [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/’sblood] and, my favorite “you wouldn’t know it was profane” expostulation: “odd’s bodkin!”
Greg Diamond is the winner!
Congratulations sir, once the hat’s are ready you’ll be first in line to receive one!
Great! Now I can attribute that first sentence to FFFF on my campaign literature!*
(*But I won’t. That would be wrong.)
“hat’s”
Really? Grammar Police fail.
Diamond, don’t you have an election or something to be working on?
Oh, yeah. Right.
Mr. Harpoon,
Sometimes even we make mistakes. Please forgive the error and understand that we have numerous rookie officers on the force who are still learning the ropes. We hope to be error free by June 17th, 2012.
Thank you for your continued support.
You have rookies? Where’s the academy?
Our academy is in Fullerton. We can’t disclose the location due to security reasons, but rest assured that we are turning out new officers monthly in the hopes for safer, more grammatically correct streets.
Would you like an armored vehicle or a helicopter or a battering ram?
Well, look at that . . . Police who are willing to admit mistakes!
Fullpoon, I am doing only minor campaigning in the primary, as my own participation in the November runoff is not in doubt. (I’m phone banking in the Fullerton Office and doing some canvassing in precincts I share with Julio Perez in Anaheim, plus some online stuff. Not like November.)
I have a half-dozen or more elections tomorrow that I consider to be higher priorities than how well I do myself — and, of course, the most important races tomorrow are in Wisconsin! I November, I plan to be more self-centered.
I don’t think you could get any more self-centered.
I could be campaigning primarily for myself instead of for others, dim bulb.
When was the last time you used a sentence without the word “I’ in it?
Haha. True.
And he doesn’t campaign for himself because he knows he just signed up to be canon fodder.
@Poon — Get stuffed. (See, that sentence right there didn’t have one!)
Fred, I don’t expect to do that well in the primary, especially not having campaigned. I’m treating it like a very good poll of voters, which will determine my campaign strategy (and how I market it.) Be patient, grasshopper.
I do think that Jay Chen and Sharon Quirk-Silva have a better chance of winning in November than I do. But as I think that both of them will win, that still leaves me room to do the same. Whatever I can do to maximize turnout helps us all. Is that “cannon fodder”? To me, it’s political activism.
condescending
supercilious
complaisant
patronizing
disdainful
egotistic
arrogant
snobbish
a list of adjectives that describe the grammar nut
Mr. Pooped a Matt:
Here’s the spelling corrections to your list:
Complacent
Egotistical
dumb ass I copied and pasted, so your spelling is weak sauce.
com·plai·sant (km-plsnt, -znt)
adj.
Exhibiting a desire or willingness to please; cheerfully obliging.
——————————————————————————–
[French, from Old French, present participle of complaire, to please, from Latin complacre; see complacent.]
——————————————————————————–
com·plaisant·ly adv.
e·go·tist (g-tst, g-)
n.
1. A conceited, boastful person.
2. A selfish, self-centered person.
——————————————————————————–
ego·tistic, ego·tisti·cal adj.
ego·tisti·cal·ly adv.
You are unbelievably obtuse. I mean, wow.
Mr. Pooped a Matt:
Please note that your definition of ‘complaisant’ is not the proper version you were attempting. Though you may have spelled that correctly, your word choice was wrong.
Here’s the version you were looking for:
com·pla·cent/kəmˈplāsənt/
Adjective:
Showing smug or uncritical satisfaction with oneself or one’s achievements.
Also, dumb-ass should always be hyphenated or written as one word (dumbass)
yea yer a DUM-BASS
A FISH
Is it possible you might be able to locate another sandbox, err, I mean blog, to play in? One with children closer to your own age? Grammar Police and the rest of us have enough work on our hands educating our local police force. We can’t afford to try to school every young Tom, Dick or Harry who comes along now can we? Fullerton has a wonderful library, with a large children’s collection. In time I’m sure you will be able to comprehend some of their more challenging chapter books.
devils food your a clown, a low life teachers aide.
this blog ain’t for learning. its for blogging have fun correctin everyones posts
Perhaps I misspoke. I believe picture books are more your speed. Probably ones with lots of words like “poop” to tickle your sophisticated funny-bone.
Mr. Pooped a Matt:
Again may we remind you to PLEASE use the correct form of ‘your’. You seem to have a major issue with choosing the correct version.
In this case ‘you’re’ is the appropriate choice.
Not necessarily; “dumb ass” may also refer to a mute donkey (or derriere.)
You are correct Mr. Diamond, but in this context we believed that Mr. Pooped a Matt wasn’t referring to a non-speaking donkey. If he was however, accept our humblest apologies.
I believe the term you are looking for is “dumbass.” A “dumb ass” would of course be a mute donkey. Which we hope you might consider emulating.
– With apologies to the Grammar Police.
You’re too quick on the draw for me, Grammar Police!
Mr. Lover,
You are on the right track, but we were looking more for the origin of the word and what it is short for.
Ahem. Look a couple of responses up, unresponsive cop!
I don’t see how Quirk has a better chance than you, having none herself. What’s a Chen?
That’s right, you don’t see how Sharon wins. Nor have you run the numbers, like I have.
If you live in Fullerton, Jay Chen is your next Congressman. Harvard grad, hired as a top business consultant, entrepreneur, naval intelligence officer –he’s sort of in the mold of Matt Rowe, but maybe Matt Rowe in 6-10 years.
Well done, little man. In that little exposition alone you used the singular personal pronoun eight times, the possessive pronoun once and the indirect personal pronoun once.
Yes, it’s all about you, isn’t it Mr. Political Activism?
Skadoosh.
Poon, I was writing about myself and my electoral prospects. Would you rather I used third person? That strikes me as weird.
(I’m not “Mr. Political Activism,” though the past year has been pretty good for it.)
Ms. H:
You are correct! Unfortunately Mr. Diamond has already won the hat, but we’d be happy to provide you with a “I Support The Grammar Police” bumper sticker.
My mom will be proud.
Diamond and the cops. Hmm.
If the cops are fine with me despite my expressed opinions that:
(1) Pat McKinley should be recalled;
(2) Dick Jones maybe should be recalled and if we could trust their replacements to government responsibly then Don Bankhead as well;
(3) Jay Cicinelli went so far beyond his authorized actions that he has lost his immunity and should be in prison;
(4) The policy of rousting homeless people based on pretexts is immoral and possibly illegal and should never have been in place and should be ended immediately; and
(5) While I don’t favor busting police unions, I am fine with people taking a hard look at pensions, especially in the context of other revenue and spending reforms; then
I am happy that they like my writing. I see this as a pretty moderate position, neither devoutly pro-cop nor devoutly anti-cop, but pragmatic and willing to work with all sides without trying to politicize and capitalize on the conflict.
“(2) Dick Jones maybe should be recalled ”
Maybe?…are you serious? You are “steppin on your own wienie” now.
Any votes you might have had, have just left the building.
I’ll explain why:
I think that Jones and Bankhead have richly earned a recall. What I’m not convinced of is that Tony’s crew has earned the right to govern Fullerton. If one of them wins, fine — then we can hash all of this out before November. If two of them win, I don’t know how far they will go; they don’t seem willing to put any limits on how small and how irresponsibly they might “shrink government” with a machete.
I honestly thought that they’d pledge to make cuts judiciously and responsibly rather than ramming things through with a 3-2 majority. But they haven’t. If they truly don’t believe that they want to be constrained, then that honesty is admirable — but I absolutely do not want another Costa Mesa style “destructive revolution” here.
The only way to get rid of the power of the current council majority without risking a Costa Mesa style situation is to recall only McKinley. I don’t think that Jones wins in November anyway.
If I knew that Levinson was going to lose, I’d say “recall Jones too” — because Kiger on council along with Chaffee or Rowe (and Sharon, Bruce, and probably still Bankhead in my scenario) doesn’t scare me that much. Let him push his policies and we can take a good look at him. (Sebourn scares me even less — I see him as sort of halfway between Kiger and Rowe — but the Bankhead race is very hard to handicap.)
Let’s put it this way: if I knew that Bankhead would be retained, and Chaffee won the McKinley seat, then a lineup of Sharon, Bruce, Doug, Banky and Georgieff doesn’t scare me at all. There’s a 4-1 majority for most reforms, though not for the anti-union attacks that we’d see from an FFFF majority. If the line-up is Sharon, Bruce, Doug, Banky and Kiger, that still doesn’t scare me too much. Bruce and Travis would be able to get a second for their proposals and that would allow for a very informed vote in November.
If Rowe wins, and Georgieff wins, then again I think that it’s a reasonable looking Council. If Rowe wins, and Kiger wins, then maybe Bruce and Travis could attract Matt’s vote for some reforms, but I trust that those reforms would not be crazy Costa Mesa style stuff. I may not like some of it, but it doesn’t scare me enough to say “retain Jones.”
However: if Levinson wins, then if Georgieff wins we have a reasonable council (although I think that Levinson is a step down from Kiger and two steps down from Sebourn.) If Levinson wins AND KIGER WINS, though, then I don’t see many limits on how far their “reforms” will go, except for their being stopped in court.
That outcome is too dangerous for comfort. I’d rather see another five months of Jones.
If you don’t like this analysis, then by all means go vote for the state’s main redevelopment advocate who would probably like to see all of the incumbents retained. (Why take half a loaf when you can have no loaf at all?) But it shouldn’t be a surprise; I’ve been saying pretty much the same thing for months. My surprise is in the FFFF candidates not ruling anything out.
You should have become an embalmer.
I’m willing to give it a try. Let me know when you’re ready.
And that’s Mr. Whitaker to you.
Pompous!
Not only are you a lazy flat slob with no real work ethic, you are a long winded gas bag with an over inflated sense of being and very deep psychological issues.
Instead of getting a real job like the rest of us, you spend your day posting these mind numbing long winded posts that no one except yourself reads while collecting disability.
I feel so sorry for the poor lady who happens to be married to you …Michael Sellers.
Mr. Sellers 4 senate:
Based on your post it seems that you are implying that Mr. Diamond is married to …Michael Sellers.
Perhaps you posted this accidentally?
I’m pretty sure that she’s not Michael Sellers, although to be fair I have never seen them photographed together.
Collecting disability? What? You seem to have me confused with someone. Lay off the “mind-numbing” fluid — it’s working a little too well.
Papoleon said that at Waterloo.
typo make that Napoleon
Mr. Ornery,
We will let you off with a warning this time. Don’t let it happen again.