What to Do With Former Redevelopment Employees? How About Pink Slips?
Anybody who reads this blog knows that I have had a running battle with the Fullerton Redevelopments Agency, even going so far as suing the Agency to block its bogus expansion attempt into areas of west and east Fullerton that had no blight. That was just a fraudulent attempt to divert property tax revenue from legitimate recipients.
Now that Redevelopment has been killed off by the Legislature and the Governor, I really have to wonder what has and will become of that small army of government economic planners, boondoggle promoters, bribers, bagmen, design guideline perpetrators, and the rest, whose job it was to gin up sales tax revenue and property tax increment (usually at the expense of somebody else) while dictating land use development in Redevelopment project areas across California.
Lest anybody think I’m just grousing about an abstract problem, consider an article here in the OC Register that points out the exorbitant amount that Fullerton Redevelopment Agency wasted on administration.
Anyway, these folks were in the business of playing developer without taking any of the risks, and with a compliant city council there was never any fear of them being held accountable for their manifest failures.
Some of the former Redevelopment employees will be kept around to close things out. The rest? Who knows? In Fullerton, some of them have already been absorbed into the regular bureaucracy, to be supported by the General Fund – as if these people were simply interchangeable and indispensable parts. The message that move sent to the citizens of Fullerton is a really bad one – that the government has no appetite to shrink, even though a specific purpose has been ended.
But is it really fair Tony, to get rid of employees simply because they’re not needed?
“The message that move sent to the citizens of Fullerton is a really bad one – that the government has no appetite to shrink, even though a specific purpose has been ended.”
It’s the same message that our governor just sent us with the fake budget he just signed. Same church, different pew. We will be lucky to get our water tax reversed, we can’t ask for too much now, we wouldn’t want to be greedy. I fully expect the city to make positions for everyone who isn’t needed. I won’t stop hoping to be proven wrong.
Chris- Being you have the same similar situation at FSD, what do you think is the solution for getting rid of dead weight, government protected employees? That isn’t sarcasm, that is an honest question.
Grousing…nice pull.
It seems they may still have a job…
http://www.pe.com/business/business-headlines/20120608-redevelopment-state-rejects-plea-for-410-million-for-sb-airport-fixes.ece
How much a month will the city save if we cut them loose? I don’t see anywhere that we signed up to financially support pencil pushers that have become obsolete. We can send each one of them off with an erector set and when THEY CAN FIND PRIVATE VOLUNTARY FUNDING not taken at gunpoint from the taxpayers then they can have their cubicles back. I wonder how many real jobs redevelopment killed with the money taken out of the economy forcibly through the extraction of taxes to feed the monster, how the big boxes killed the mom and pops, the 100k income qualifier affordable housing projects, and how they made deals with FOREIGN companies. What will we be left over if they are gone? Will it be enough to re-pave some of the streets, synchronize traffic signals, maintain and improve our parks, provide anger management classes to the FPD, and hire a police chaplain that doesn’t attend Anton Laveys church? We all have families and bills to pay but doggonit get these monkeys off of our backs. Stenosis is setting in.
Seems to be a popular way to keep people employed. Admin assistants, deputy city manager, etc.
What would you anybody expect? Its their Party 7 days a week,
No accountability.
“Blank Checks” up the ass!
Run a nice city into the sewer!
Give aways, WTF its free to them!
Make lifelong Corrupt friends, expense accounts, backroom deals!”
BUT WAIT, PARTY IS WINDING DOWN, ITS OVER SOON, REAL OATHS WILL BE TAKEN. THE TRASH IS ON ITS WAY OUT OR ALREADY GONE!!!!!
“CONGRATULATIONS FULLERTON”
http://taxdollars.ocregister.com/2012/06/28/fullerton-cost-to-run-redevelopment-far-less-than-reported/158063/
Who thinks they are today starting to tell the truth or not continue being disingenuous.
If I were Felz I wouldn’t be trying to defend Fullerton Redevelopment right about now.
I’d like to find out what type of “designs, engineering and plan checks” we got for $7.4 million. It sounds like city hall hired one hell of a firm – themselves!
You folks know that government workers and their cronies have guaranteed life employment. In the private sector when workers aren’t needed anymore they are terminated. That doesn’t happen in government. They just get shuffled around to other makeshift government jobs and you continue to pay for their salaries and pensions – which are much higher than equivalent workers are paid in the private sector. I hope that explains it for you.
Fullerton is not your average situation, it even has aspects that surpass the scrutiny seen in the City of Bell.
Well, as a twice laid-off public employee, I am compelled to refute that generalization –
First layoff was after 12 years as a full-time employee with L.A. County (1981 – funding reduction)
Second layoff was after 17 years as a full-time employee with a local city (2004 – budget issues)
And, when I went to work for the local city? I took a 25 percent cut in salary from my private sector job – chose quality of life over $$$$
So, don’t “assume” that public employees never get laid off! Nor that they are paid more than their private sector counterparts!
You personal anecdote isn’t even close to being the general rule – and you know that.
98% of government workers were left unscathed by economic meltdown. Very few lost their jobs. Private sector companies downsized significantly. There were reports of 200 applicants for a lousy restaurant job. Some local governments had hiring freezes – but few actually terminated workers to any noteworthy degree.
Your personal anecdote is not the rule. You know that.
If you’re going to throw out stats you need to back them up, like that 98%. I won’t rely on the stock insult of where you might have pulled that figure from, but you get the point. You know that.
You also seem to be missing the point that it was the private interests of Wall St, along with their government enablers/beneficiaries who caused the economic meltdown. Not teachers, janitors, clerks, or city landscaping crews.
But hell, you know that.
So how many government workers got layed off by the City of Fullerton in the last 4 years??? heh.
Can you say “goose egg”?
The truth is often a painful encounter.
So a guy who worked at a department store was responsible for the economic meltdown?
Your logic makes no sense whatsoever.
Why should government workers be exempt from economic forces?
I didn’t say a guy who worked at a department store caused the meltdown. I said exactly “he private interests of Wall St, along with their government enablers/beneficiaries.”
This wasn’t some kind of random or independent “economic forces.” This was a scam run by banksters and government bureaucrats, whom you might notice are pretty much the same thing.
Your theory is that the economic crises just “happened” and since low-to-mid income priavte industry workers got hit hard, then low-to-mid public employees should also be hit hard.
I’m saying that instead of blaming people who didn’t cause the problem you should blame the people who did and try to get your money from the people who stole it. Good luck with that though. They’re hanging on to their wealth and power.
“Your theory is that the economic crises just “happened” and since low-to-mid income priavte industry workers got hit hard, then low-to-mid public employees should also be hit hard”
That’s a misrepresentation of my beliefs. I believe that the economic meltdown was a result of corruption and financial criminal activity perpetrated through complict acts from our highest government and corporate offices. But when the fallout hits why are only the private sector workers punished. The misery should also be evenly spread throughout the public sector. What makes you think that government workers should be immune from economic hard times and keep their jobs? Do you think that you are royalty or something? That your manure doesn’t stink?
“I’m saying that instead of blaming people who didn’t cause the problem you should blame the people who did and try to get your money from the people who stole it”
I do blame them, pal. I also blame the public unions for financially raping the common taxpayers by promoting grossly excessive salaries and pensions for government slugs.
My point is that it is egregiously unjust for the private sector workers to pay disproportionally for the complicit sins of government and big business. If you disagree with that you are just another spoke in the wheel of injustice.
Any well run city has 25% less workers now than 3-4 years ago and the current employees are working for 5-10% less wages and benefits. If they aren’t then that city needs to wake up.
Yes, is unjust. Welcome to reality. If your neighbor is burglarized and you aren’t that is unjust too. But you don’t go take your neighbors’ stuff to right the injustice.
The problem is your assumption that all government workers are grossly overpaid and compensated. Some are, many aren’t. And I’m glad you understand who it was that screwed you but you still have a lot of misplaced anger at people who had nothing to do with that. They are just normal people whose careers went a certain way and they ended up in the public sector. You could have been one of them but you chose not to. Don’t hate them for it.
“Yes, is unjust”
There you go. Your defenses finally broke down and I convinced you to admit the truth.
“If your neighbor is burglarized and you aren’t that is unjust too. But you don’t go take your neighbors’ stuff to right the injustice”
That is a totally irrelevant analogy. A more relevant and truthful analogy would entail government paid thieves infiltrating neighborhoods, legally breaking down doors and looting (burglaring) specific homes of some select residents (private sector) and leaving others (public sector) untouched. You only accept that “reality” when it happens to SOMEONE ELSE. As long as it doesn’t happen to YOU – it’s fine.
“The problem is your assumption that all government workers are grossly overpaid and compensated. Some are, many aren’t”
Anytime a common government worker can collect 81% of his final paycheck or MORE after working from age 25-55 he is totally overly compensated as compared to the private sector which should be considered the gold standard. If you say this is UNCOMMON – they you need to look at the employment contract in place for 16,000 or more Orange County workers that was gained through a corrupted alliance between public unions and government officials.
“They are just normal people whose careers went a certain way and they ended up in the public sector”
“Normal people” do not collect 81% of their final paycheck at age 55 and force me to pay for the bulk of it.
You need to review your terms. They are skewed and full of willful bias.
Just Us: Several city of Fullerton workers were laid off the past 4 years, ok make that the past 6 months. Around 10 FPD officers were laid off, told to resign, or terminated due to various indiscretions. The problem is those created openings that will be filled. A true lay off is when NO ONE is hired for that position or any similar position. A freeze on hiring works really well.
WHen you do not actually lay off people, costs go up as in the case of Sgt Andy Goodlie who was made a Lieutenant and higher pay and benefits to basically do the same job. Next he will apply for Chief.
Hey menso, you are counting the 6 that are on admin leave. Four were actually fired, but replaced. Oh well. Have to have copes out on the streets to deal with jerks like you.
Well, I do agree with JustUs on one more thing. If John Doe is a public sector worker he should definitely be fired.
June 28, 2012 Updated: 12:43 p.m.
OC Register
New Fullerton councilmen to take oath Monday
http://www.ocregister.com/news/council-361221-councilmen-new.html
That statement, of course is utterly ridiculous. Except for the last part.
Why? Sales taxes down. RD gone. 9% pers paid now by emps. Reserves need to increase.
Nobody has reduced anything. Reserves have been tapped.
The last part is correct.
If that’s the case in Fullerton then they aren’t like most cities.
Sure they are. Nobody ever gets laid off. Budgeted, but unfilled featherbed jobs just get deleted. Until time get better, then the binge begins all over again.
You mean get rid of that valuable piece of manpower, Charles Kovacs. Why, he’s more valuable than Ernie. Of course Ernie’s been dead for 50 years.
Don’t give yourself so much credit. I know what injustice is when I see it. I saw a private sector full of real estate brokers and bankers and everyone connected with them making big money which they then blew on more expensive properties which then plunged in value when the crisis they helped cause hit. I didn’t see City Hall janitors engineer the crisis or profit from it. Your analogy is worse than mine because it wasn’t “government-paid thieves” who made off with the loot. It was banks. Look at CEO pay during the economic crisis. Look at corporate profits in the last 5 years. Look at which sectors profited. Look at to what extent they shared any of those profits with their employees.
Private jobs pay more than public sector jobs. Many analyses have found that out. Here’s one: http://www.nirsonline.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=395&Itemid=48 If that doesn’t include total compensation, other studies do and the results are that the differential is way less than you make it seem to be.
You define “normal” pretty strangely. Some random city, state, or county employee may have the advantage of a good pension that his private counterpart doesn’t, but that’s because the private pension value got trashed during the whole Wall St. scam, which you are just ignoring. You want to blame the little guy instead of the people who engineered the whole thing. Typical.
There are probably issues we agree on. There are too many public employees in certain jobs and jurisdictions. There are way too many administrators and they are often overpaid, overcompensated, and unneeded. There is a ton of waste, fraud and abuse that can be cut too. And I agree public unions are part of the problem. But the main problem is that govt’s priorities are out of whack and your precious tax money is going to support a prison gulag among other things.
“Your analogy is worse than mine because it wasn’t “government-paid thieves” who made off with the loot. It was banks”
My analogy was spot on. It’s obvious that there is a revolving door for government appointed Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan execs on Capital Hill in decision making authority public positions. That is because your government colleagues are OWNED by the financial terrorists who brought down the economy. The meltdown would have never happened if the government did not turn a blind eye and even ENCOURAGE the corrupted Wall Street thievery through the willful lack of vigilant regulation. Look at all the former government officials who now work for the financial firms on Wall Street. There is a corrupted revolving door made possible by your government friends in high places. For you to place sole blame on the ‘banks’ is absolutely disingenuous which is an indication of either ignorance or willful denial.
“Private jobs pay more than public sector jobs”
That’s an absolute falsehood. Look at common workers who work for the government – janitors, clerks, secretaries, etc…. all entitled to HUGE pensions at age 55. Nowhere in the private sector would such common workers qualify for such a deal. We are talking MILLION DOLLAR PLUS lifetime pensions that start at age 55. Government workers with iron clad job security are compensated MUCH higher than workers of equivalent skills in the private sector. Any idiot who knows how the world actually works is fully aware of this.
“Some random city, state, or county employee may have the advantage of a good pension that his private counterpart doesn’t, but that’s because the private pension value got trashed during the whole Wall St. scam, which you are just ignoring”
Another falsehood. The private sector could not remain globally competitive by providing workers with defined benefit pensions. Otherwise they would have gone bankrupt. Since no one is held financially accountable in government they can continue deficit spending (spending money that does not exist) in order to finance BIG pensions for the public workers. If government workers screw up the budget no one gets fired for it. We just borrow more to cover their screw-ups and overspending placing the burden on the younger generations who will be forced to pay for it all. I have never witnessed such a degree of selfishness from a group of people before in my life. Raw selfishness caring only about their own personal gain without even considering the financial damage they forcing upon innocent young people who will have to accept a lower standard of living to pay yoru bills. Deplorable is too kind a word.
You make the following mistakes:
1. You confuse the people who run the country with the rank and file workers they employ. That is wrong in the public sector and the private sector. The guy who cleans Goldman Sachs’s toilets is not responsible for what their board does. The guy who cleans the Pentagon toilets is not responsible for the hundreds of billions of dollars they waste each year.
2. Not all state employees have defined pensions so your discussion of “common workers” is false. And you didn’t bother to actually look at studies comparing private and public compensation that DOES factor in pensions and benefits. If you did you would see that the discrepancy is nowhere as large as you think it is, as I said before.
3. The private sector is not globally competitive because of both outsourcing and the race to the bottom it produces, and because of increasing mechanization which means machines and computer intelligence now does work that people used to do. Not because of its pension burdens.
Look at the actual distribution of wealth in the US and what you will not see is what you are pretending is real: a vast public sector full of wealth and a private sector full of poverty. That is a myth and you know it. If you don’t know it, do some research. And ease up on the outrage at people who aren’t responsible for what is happening, like Peaches above, which is why I got in this debate with you in the first place.
You know that.
http://www.npr.org/2011/02/25/134065799/Truth-Squading-Public-Private-Pay-And-Benefits
http://www.sj-r.com/top-stories/x66784260/Comparing-pay-of-public-vs-private-employees-Pick-your-study
https://www.opers.org/pdf/news/101210_Compensation_comparisions%20%285%29.pdf
You make the following mistakes:
1) You confuse normal people who hold private sector jobs with Wall Street banksters. You feel that private sector workers should get punished for the sins of Wall Street and the government – and that public workers should be immune from the economic tsunami that hit the rest of the nation. Simply put, your thought process is flawed.
2) You fail to recognize that 98% of Orange County employees have a 2.7%@55 or 3%@50 pension formula. You fail to recognize that 90% of city employees have similar pension formulas. This is easily ascertainable at John Chiang’s Controller website if you would take the time to research it. Common government workers like secretaries, clerks, janitors, road workers, etc… get compensated at much higher rates than private sector workers in similar jobs. No common worker in the private sector gets a lifetime $million$ dollar plus pension collectable at 55 years of age, plus heavily subsidized medical coverage to boot. Do your research. Your thought process is flawed.
3. Pensions are EXTREMELY costly for private enterprise. Imagine if all private sector workers in America were entitled to a 2.7% or 3%@50-55 pension. It would completely destroy the economy. We could not compete with foreign companies. It would wipe us out. You would be living like a 3rd world peasant. The government (which adds NOTHING to GDP – only subtracts from it) still allows pensions because the government slugs have no bottom line to obey. If they overspend (due to high pension costs) they simply borrow more or print more. If the government were a private business it would have defaulted 30 years ago.
I debate you because you aren’t being factual. I am here to keep you factual for the sake of other readers who have a right to know that they are being fleeced by greedy and selfish government workers.
JU. You make valid points. It’s all debateable.
Some points I find people using both ends on are:
Now public workers are high paid and rich. 4 years ago public workers were low paid and getting along. 4 years ago no one said much at all about public workers. Now that the real estate excuse, wall street excuse, and the others have been exhausted its now the public employees fault. I agree with you that if the system cannot afford the pay and benefits, make changes. The changes will be from the time the change is made forward. You can’t penalize people that have been in a system for 20 years and didn’t have the choice or option of 401k and other investments, taking into consideration their contracts now and in the last 20 years. Make adjustments now just like most cities have done and are doing.
Your other flaw is that public workers have million dollar pensions. What percent of pers employees and pensioners have pensions over 60k a year? What percent over 100k a year? A majority of the system are under 30k. If we went them all working until 75 then make the change. Make the change now and then all employees can plan their lives knowing what their pension will be and new employees will also know what investments they need to make for their retirement.
I agree with you in a way. Its just you and others use the public employee system as the cause for everything when just a few short years ago they were the low paid shit pay workers. Amazing what a few years makes.
Agreed. The system is failing on many fronts. Our current debt based currency system is the primary reason for the bottomless pit we are falling into. The orgy of illegal wars and the repeal of Glass- Steagall are the ball and chains that have been shackled to our ankles. We are teetering on right on the edge of falling into the bottomless pit. Public pensions and benefits are the only thing that hasn’t been bolted to our backs yet as bankruptcy is a way out of the obligations. If we fail to end the military industrial complex’s endless expansion, return to Glass-Steagall and don’t do something about the out of control obligations, we tip over the edge and go down the shaft with the ball and chain AND broken backs. Very precarious situation we are in and very few realize the brevity to implement the remedies. Denial gives one no escape.
I agree with the majority of this. You are casting blame where it belongs. There is one more thing to point out – the orgy of illegal wars as you very well put it corresponded to the largest annual profits (relative to all other firms) of oil companies and military-related companies ever. Coincidence?
a bloody sickening coincedence indeed
No, No, No, No, No.
I have never said anywhere that employees of private firms are the same as Wall St. banksters and that they “deserve” their financial punishment. In fact I said the exact opposite *right above.* I said that Goldman Sachs janitors are not the same as GS CEOs. I do not think that private sector workers “deserve” to lose their jobs, benefits, incomes etc. as has been happening. Please read what I write more carefully and stop with the straw men.
I actually agree with you about the early retirement stuff for most of those jobs. Retirement age should be raised to 65 in most cases. That would help lower pension costs. That’s fine with me. Instead of insulting me try to understand what I’m actually saying. In general, overall, studies show that even when all compensation including pensions is factored in that public sector compensation does NOT greatly exceed private sector compensation. I have linked to numerous studies concluding this above. You keep saying that public sector compensation is much larger than private sector compensation but you haven’t offered any evidence for it, except to bring out the fact that these workers can retire earlier. I agree with you that the retirement age should be changed.
You simply don’t understand the overall economics at the national level. You are correct about the Wall St./government nexus. They are to blame and you seem to understand that. Good. But then you extrapolate from that and think that because those at the top of government (and their corporate allies/masters) wrecked the economy, that those at the bottom of government are equally responsible. This is no more true than if I said that the GS janitors are equally responsible for wrecking the economy as the GS CEOs. But I am saying the opposite of that.
I am being factual. You are not being factual since each time you post you purposely misrepresent what I am saying. The real “fleecing” is being done by a corporate-government nexus not by low level workers. You want to punish lower level workers in the public sector because of what happened to lower level workers in the private sector and you think that is somehow justice. Bringing down the level of all is not justice. I would rather that economic ruin did not happen to either of these classes, but it did. Justice is not impoverishing your neighbor because you have been impoverished. It is finding the real culprits and doing something about them.
“I have never said anywhere that employees of private firms are the same as Wall St. banksters and that they “deserve” their financial punishment”
You insinuated that government workers should have to be subject to the same negative economic forces that private sector workers must tolerate. Why? Because you consider public workers a cut above? 😀 What a joke that is. Public workers are inefficient and many of the ones I’ve encountered are lazy. And why shouldn’t they be? No one is punished in the public sector for being lazy. It’s almost impossible to get fired in government for being lazy or incompetent. But private sector workers face the risk of being terminated day in and day out. It’s extremely easy to fire a private sector worker and it’s done all the time. So you public workers get higher compensation and take LESSER risks. That sure follows the American tradition that made this nation great, doesn’t it?? 😀
“In general, overall, studies show that even when all compensation including pensions is factored in that public sector compensation does NOT greatly exceed private sector compensation”
Depending upon the study you cite you could prove that the sun sets in the east too. I told you before. Go look at the State Controller’s website and look at the salaries and benefits for common workers in local or state government (ie. secretaries, janitors, clerks, landscapers, etc…) and compare them with the compensation recieved by similar occupations in the private sector. It’s like night and day. Show me a janitor, secretary or landscaper in the private sector who gets to retire @ age 55 with a $million$ dollar pension or close to it. Impossible. And the salaries are higher in the public sector too. Those jobs get minimum wage in the private sector. In the government they get $20/hr and more. Plus, it’s practically impossible to fire government workers. I have spoken to public sector supervisors who tell me they have employee with disciplinary files as thick as a phone book and can’t get rid of them. That is one reason that government work is a farce.
“But then you extrapolate from that and think that because those at the top of government (and their corporate allies/masters) wrecked the economy, that those at the bottom of government are equally responsible”
No. I am saying what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. I am saying that in economic downturns that the private sector should not have to take the brunt of the job terminations. It should be spread EVENLY thoughout the private AND public sectors. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?
“I am being factual”
No you’re not. You’re not admiting that public sector workers are compensated more generously than private sector workers, that public sector workers have MUCH less risk in losing their jobs and for that reason tend to be lazier, and much more inefficient with a higher incidence of incompetence. If a human being knows that it’s practically impossible to get fired – he will work slower and not take as much interest in doing his job in a competent manner. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.
Points for sheer persistence. Negative points for not reading carefully and a lot of unwarranted assumptions.
I don’t believe that private people were subjected to “economic forces” as if those exist independently of human actions. Wall St/high-level govt. screwed the private sector. That was wrong. That wrong doesn’t get righted by then screwing low-level public workers for some kind of sick retribution. I think I’ve now said that about 5 times. Please let it penetrate your skull this time
I never said public workers were a cut above and I don’t believe that. You’ve got quite an inferiority complex going there.
You are now saying all public workers are inherently lazier than private workers. Some are, some aren’t. I’m not arguing that further because that’s just your bias and you have no proof.
When you dismiss research because it doesn’t fit your worldview that pretty much ends the conversation. In the end you’re going to believe whatever the hell you want if facts to the contrary don’t even budge your position. I call that closeminded and that’s a debate ender.
I tried to meet you halfway by agreeing that reforming public sector retirement age makes sense. You ignore that. You want to win an argument by building up straw men and knocking them down.
The main problem is just your faulty understanding of economics. You think this downturn was natural. That it just happened and so why should one group take the hit and not another. I’m saying that the downturn was not natural and that neither group should have taken the hit and instead of trying to spread the pain to everybody you should go after the ones who seized all the wealth that everybody else was losing. And that’s it and I’m out.
“I don’t believe that private people were subjected to “economic forces” as if those exist independently of human actions. Wall St/high-level govt. screwed the private sector. That was wrong. That wrong doesn’t get righted by then screwing low-level public workers for some kind of sick retribution”
You’re still not making any sense or connecting the dots here. Private sector workers got screwed during the economic downturn. That’s what happens in economic downturns. You can complain about who was responsible for the economic downturn if you want …… but that doesn’t change the fact that there was an economic collapse and the consequences that resulted. People got screwed. My point is that if private sector workers got screwed the misery should be spread evenly between the private and public sectors. The job losses should have been proportional across the economy. The same proportion of public workers should have lost their jobs too. But they didn’t. So public workers get the highest compensation and take the lowest risk. Is that clear to you now? Or do I need to draw you a map?
“You are now saying all public workers are inherently lazier than private workers. Some are, some aren’t. I’m not arguing that further because that’s just your bias and you have no proof”
Anyone who has worked in both the public and private sectors (like I have) knows the difference in the work habits and attitudes of public and private sector workers. Laziness and incompetence are widespread in public service because it’s incredibly difficult to fire government workers. In the private sector you get one warning and you’re gone. So I have seen it with my own eyes. And anyone who knows the internal operations of both sectors knows what I say is true.
“In the end you’re going to believe whatever the hell you want if facts to the contrary don’t even budge your position”
No. I believe what my own eyes and vast amount of experience in both the public and private sectors tell me. Academic studies only tell you what the author of the study (or it’s sponsors) want you to believe.
“I tried to meet you halfway by agreeing that reforming public sector retirement age makes sense. You ignore that. You want to win an argument by building up straw men and knocking them down”
No straw men here. The private sector should be the gold standard and the public sector should follow the private sector’s lead. We simply cannot afford defined benefit pensions as a nation anymore. Look at the massive unfunded liabilities in the public pension funds alone. Imagine if private companies were required to provide defined pensions. The entire nation would fall off the economic cliff. Public workers should all be required to go to 401-K’s – just like 90% of the private sector has.
“The main problem is just your faulty understanding of economics. You think this downturn was natural”
Again, you are misrepresenting my beliefs. The economic meltdown was NOT natural. It was totally avoidable. It was the result of corrupted complicit actions between the government and big business. But that does not address the CONSEQUENCES which were largely paid by private sector workers – and avoided by public sector workers – which has been my argument from the start of this debate. An argument that you willfully fail to comprehend.
Oh, and it is the government’s responsibility to prosecute the economic and financial terrorists who were responsible for the economic collapse. Yet not even one of the main players has been indicted or prosecuted. That is a direct FAILING of government and illustrates their direct complicity in contrived financial collapse that took place.
“And that’s it and I’m out”
Yes, I agree. You’re down and out for the ten count. Thank you for the victory.
Good arguments for both sides. JustUs your plans may come true within the next 20 years. Slight changes now. It will be most of children and grandchildren that are welcomed to the public sector jobs in 25 years with low pay and no retirement programs. They won’t be jobs that people can support a family anymore. It is what it is. I predict taxes will go back up and public sector jobs will thrive again when the economy changes. We will see. Catch ya in heaven as we watch down debating the very same topic in 25 years.
“It will be most of children and grandchildren that are welcomed to the public sector jobs in 25 years with low pay and no retirement programs. They won’t be jobs that people can support a family anymore”
Yes, Mr. Holmes. The GDP in America simply cannot afford the costs anymore. But the public sector does not want to live with that reality. They want to live as if this is 1950 and not 2012. They only want all the rewards that a good economy brings – they do not want the downside that a bad economy brings….they want only the private sector to suffer the consequences of a downside economy. This is the attitude of Devil’s Food and his like minded public worker friends!
I have worked in BOTH sectors, Mr. Holmes. My eyes don’t lie.
I have never seen a generation of people who are more selfish or greedy than the baby boomer generation. And I am one of those, btw. My WW2 era parents who are now gone were more interested in OUR generation (baby boomers) having a higher standard of life than they had ABOVE AND BEYOND their own personal interests. But today’s baby boomers have accumulated MASSIVE amounts of debt and have no qualms about shoving that debt off onto their children and grandchildren’s generation rather than sacrificing NOW for the good of future generations. It is disgusting and deplorable. The baby boomers want to live like kings and queens while forcing future generations to pay for our sins. What a immoral and unjust society we have evolved into! Selfishness, greed and avarice are the rule of the day. Screw all future generations. It makes me want to vomit in my mouth! 🙁
True. Amazing all the whining in this era due to a sense of entitlement.
True. Amazing all the whining in this era due to a sense of entitlement. Babies.
Yes, Mr. Holmes.
It what they refer to as ‘the decline of an empire’.
And it’s only a matter of time before the house of cards comes tumbling down.
We baby boomers should be ashamed of ourselves for what we are doing (and what we have done) to the kids coming up through the ranks. They don’t have a chance.
the picture was taken at 303 W. Commonwealth
I am a retired public service area employee. Before being a public service employee, I was a private sector engineer. The best move I made was going into public service. Why? #1: Public pension is far better than private 401k. I am a double dipper, actually triple dipper. I collect public pension, have a 401k and collect social security.
Do I like it? Yes. Is it fair? Well, I paid into all of those plans!
Will continuing public pensions in California at their current level result in future problems? Definitely yes. However, each municipality needs to look into their own finances and yes there is an unholy alliance especially in California between public employee unions and city and county councils! Time to tighten the purse strings until the economy turns around.
“Do I like it? Yes. Is it fair? Well, I paid into all of those plans”
But the FACT remains that your pension plan pays you MUCH more than you put in simply because it’s funded by the taxpayer. With social security the annual benefit it capped at about $30,000 regardless of how long you worked or how much you paid in. 401-K’s usually only get a 3% employer contribution on the first 3% contributed by the employee. But public pensions in Orange County deliver 81% – 100% of the employee’s last paycheck at age 55. A complete taxpayer ripoff! So by claiming you “paid into all 3 plans” be honest about the PAYBACKS here and who gets gouged – namely the taxpayer!!!
We pay 9% a month. You know that. Most used to pay 1-2%. Everyone in the pers program will pay their 9% soon. With a 9% raise on the back end lol
How much does the taxpayer pay, Mr. Holmes. Do that calculation for me, won’t ya?
So when you retire after 30 years at age 55 with a $70,000 salary and collect a 2.7%@55 penson – that means you get an annual pension benefit of $56,700. Without even adding in the COLA that would be a lifetime benefit of over $1.4 million (25 x $56,700) assuming you lived an average lifespan to age 80. Now how much of that $1.4 million did you contribute with your 9% contribution over 30 years? And who made up the difference? Over the last decade the pension funds had an ROI of about 3% annually on average. So don’t claim the investment markets made up the difference. It’s the TAXPAYERS who make up the difference, Mr. Holmes. So let’s have an honest conversation here. Shall we???
“With a 9% raise on the back end lol”
There ya go! And that is one reason why the economy will eventually collapse. You may laugh today, sir. You won’t laugh tomorrow. Trust me. 😀
Hello, Mr. Holmes????
Where’d ya go???
Did I just end our little debate??? 🙂
No. Driving. Hard to respond. Lol
I do believe you have just won the coveted FFFF dick of the blog award.
Only a dick would call another person a ‘dick’ without stating a reason for it.
My theoretical example of a pension benefit for a 2.7%@55 retired county employee who worked for the county from age 25-55 is the truth. I didn’t even factor in COLA. And my question “How much did the taxpayer contribute to that $1.4M – $1.6M lifetime benefit if the employee contributed 9% over his 30 year career?” is a very legitimate question. Don’t be dick. Answer the question.
It would be even higher for public safety with a 3%@50 pension formula. Figure if a cop worked 30 years he would have to be a full-blown idiot to spend all 30 years on the street in patrol. So most would retire with a salary of at least $100,000. So if the cop hired on at 23 and retired at 53 that means a $90,000 annual pension benefit starting at 53. CalPers has shown that cops live as long as other government workers – to an average age of 81. So the average cop would collect $90,000 for 28 years. Do the math (28 x 90,000) = over $2.5 million (not even factoring in COLA which would add a couple more hundred grand). This is not even factoring in the subsidized medical benefits given to public sector workers at early retirement ages.
And you folks can’t understand why the system is on financial life support??? 😀
Good numbers.
A few points are almost all Pers cities didn’t pay a penny toward retirement and collected 1-9% from employees for 5-8 years. Free retirement payments and banked the cash.
I dispute your average age for cops. I don’t think I know one that made it to 80. 3% at 50 is now changing to 3% at 55 for new employees.
If its as bad as you claim why is Pers not panicking and why are most city budgets balancing with just a few cuts. I like your debates.
“I dispute your average age for cops. I don’t think I know one that made it to 80”
It really doesn’t matter what you think or what personal anecdotes contend, Mr. Holmes. Both the National Criminal Justice Reference Service (NCJRS) and CalPERS have studied the longetivity of cops and public safety. The outcomes are the same. Cops live longer than those in the general population. To age 81 for PS males, age 85 for PS females.
Conclusion from NCJRS:
“Perhaps the most important outcome of this initial study of longevity is that evidence suggests police are living longer not shorter than the population as a whole”
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/pr/109485.pdf
CalPERS conclusion?:
“CalPERS concludes that this myth is busted and that safety members do live as long as miscellaneous members”
http://davisvanguard.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2977:calpers-debunks-myth-of-shorter-life-expectancy-for-safety-employees&Itemid=79
“3% at 50 is now changing to 3% at 55 for new employees”
Only for new hires at CHP. No other cops agencies have changed to my knowledge. And how does changing from 50 to 55 FOR NEW HIRES ONLY solve today’s problem? We won’t see savings from those changes for 30 years. By that time CalPERS will collapse and the US economy will be destroyed.
“If its as bad as you claim why is Pers not panicking and why are most city budgets balancing with just a few cuts”
Of course CalPERS is not publicly panicking. Do you think they would want to public to know that they are unable to competently manage the pension pension fund long-term? Their chief risk manager stated a couple years ago that the CalPERS system was going to be insolvent in a few years if nothing was done to change it. He was fired and replaced. 😀
Los Angeles is right behind Stockton, Mr. Holmes. Haven’t you read the news? Many other CA cities are on deck as well. Why bury your head in the sand? Stockton is only the first large city in a long line of large cities. Denial never solved one problem in the world, Mr. Holmes. Not a one!
Have a nice trip to wherever you’re headed.
“It really doesn’t matter what you think or what personal anecdotes contend.”
“I believe what my own eyes and vast amount of experience in both the public and private sectors tell me.”
You’re such a dick. And you better give all that money you earned in the public sector back tp us taxpayers you selfish blowhard.
Great info. Thanks.
Surprising. You will learn with your research most cities are going to a two tier retirement system which is the 55.
We will see. I guess it could just be a front and there is no panic for that reason. I would wager anything they won’t be insolvent in two years though.
Good to know I might live until 80. I was thinking I would die by 60 max before you said that.
“You’re such a dick. And you better give all that money you earned in the public sector back tp us taxpayers you selfish blowhard”
I notice that you can’t argue any of the facts that I post, can ya? You’re long on gas, short on brains.
If I’m a ‘dick’ you’re an empty scrotum sack. 😀
Hey. I’m John Holmes. I have a bunch of extra skin to share. Lol
“Good to know I might live until 80. I was thinking I would die by 60 max before you said that”
You seem like a very reasonable fellow and open to ideas. I hope you live a satisfying life well past 80, Mr. Holmes.
“I would wager anything they won’t be insolvent in two years though”
Yes, I think that would be an excellent bet, Mr. Holmes. Without some major changes (not just tweaks for new hires) I believe CalPERS will go bust in about a decade. I believe that the second wave of economic meltdowns will be worst than the first in 2008. That’s when we will sustain the most damage. It will make 2008 look like a Sunday walk in the park on a pleasant Spring day. Naturally, that is only my opinion. But I base that opinion of FACTS that are reflected in our intertwined financial global community.
I wish you well.
“Hey. I’m John Holmes. I have a bunch of extra skin to share. Lol”
Go plant some in the ground and maybe after a year or so we’ll see another little “Congrats” pop up, Mr. Holmes. 😀
Oh yes I forgot to add in private sector I was an “exempt” employee which means No Overtime. As a public service employee I was eligible for overtime the first few years then kicked into the main office at higher everything so I worked long hours anyway making my two bosses look good!
is the money train finally derailed? I would hope so. This community has been raped.
Marsha: Sadly NO! Only the willingness to keep paying may have changed. Folks look at Stockton and worry about their own city finances and liabilities. Its about time some scrutiny into municipal finances was occurring!
Hey John Holmes, you are a dead, gay, junkie porn star!
LOL that’s what Viagra is for.