Unity Versus Justice
I spent a long time listening to the comments at our City Council meeting on August 7 on getting an RFP from OCSD. There were some good remarks pro and con. But I also heard a lot of the following:
“Support your Community!” “Strength in Unity!” “Unite, don’t Divide!” “We need to Come Together!”
Listening to this I was struck that the people offering these platitudes didn’t seem to understand one of the most fundamental characteristics of a real democracy. While I hate to quote from former Defense Secretary and accomplished pathological liar Donald Rumsfeld, he did once blurt out the truth at a press conference when he said “democracy is messy.”
The irony of course was that Rumsfeld said this in defense of the chaos he had just created in starting a very undemocratic invasion of another country. But, democracy is messy, and this messiness is necessary. Disagreement and debate are also necessary. Seeking information, such as an RFP, is necessary. And yes, prospective city council people and Fullerton middle-of-the-roaders, anger is necessary. It can be misdirected and incoherent, but in the presence of great injustice anger is a sign of compassion, not of hate. Anger is also one of the few options the powerless have to express their need for justice. So questioning the Fullerton Police Department’s entire existence may create division between the public and the police (though randomly beating and killing members of the public arguably creates a lot more division). But so what? In a democracy, healing divisions between law enforcement (or one law enforcement organization to be precise) and the public is not even close to the highest goal of government.
The penultimate goal of the justice system and those who administer it should always and invariably be justice. It would be easy to have a community which thought of themselves as unified, but tolerated injustice. Think of a country which experiences unity as it unjustly attacks and wages war against another country; or enslaves a race; or discriminates against certain classes of individuals. Think of unity as the rallying cry for totalitarian regimes past and present. Unity and community without justice is nothing more than the acceptance of injustice and oppression.
This is why the appropriate sentiment for Fullerton, or Anaheim, or Downey, or any community where law enforcement has been manifestly unjust is not “let’s all unite together” but “no justice no peace.” This simple slogan reminds those in power that justice is the primary goal, and there can be no peace until justice is achieved. If peace comes before justice, the likely result is that there will be no motivation to right past wrongs and to ensure future justice. “Peace” is desirable only once the conditions for peace have been established, and the primary condition is justice.
Another phrase thrown around a lot is “compromise.” Compromise is essential in any form of human relationships, including politics. But there are a few things which cannot be compromised, and the main one of these is justice. Remember, we were not too long ago faced with a situation in which police drove around Fullerton, randomly pulled people over, beat them savagely and sadistically, and then falsely arrested them. What sort of compromise could there be in cases like this? That police officers are given a mild talking-to instead of being terminated and prosecuted? What kind of compromise can we forge with those who would bludgeon an unarmed and innocent man like Kelly Thomas to death, or those who would shield the men who did?
It is apparent that the coded language of injustice in Fullerton is now built around the following words or phrases: “Unity.” “Coming Together.” “Compromise.” “Support.” “Community.”When you hear these words used in the context of our city be forewarned – someone or some group is conspiring to make sure that justice is not served, so that your rights will continue to be violated with impunity while those in positions of power and privilege are able to keep them. I don’t want to hear these words used by our elected officials or candidates for public office. I don’t want the “healing to begin.” I want to hear the following words:
Accountability. Responsibility. And most importantly – JUSTICE.
Or else? No peace.
It’s propaganda at it’s best — and sad that they are not going forward with an RFP from the OCSD. I for one, was hugely disappointed. I thought better of the folks who replaced those ousted in the recall, but apparently, that was foolish.
Not VS. Both.
What a great read and so true. No justice no peace. Know justice know peace. The use of the blue trust color Tuesday night was completely bizarre as they were crying “give us Barabbas. No wonder the earth shook at the very moment Greg Seaborne began to do just that.
Fullertonista – wow! This is an amazing piece of writing! An accurate summary of what happened with the blue shirts Tuesday night! I am so impressed… You nailed the issues passionately, clearly, and completely! This should be printed in other forms of media for the public at large to read. Perhaps you could consider reading this at the next city council meeting. Btw, I’ll be sharing this with my family and neighbors here in north Fullerton. Thank you.
Wow, beautifully put. I am extremely disappointed in Greg Sebourn for his no vote. I thought I was voting for a fiscal conservative, I think he mis-represented himself as one. Getting a document at no cost that could save taxpayers millions every year should be a no-brainer. I think we deserve an explanation….Greg?? You there??
You got that completely right — someone bs’d us so they got voted in at recall. I would even say that I was a tad bit angry and feel like we were duped…?
Getting the document at no cost should have been a no-brainer, but apparently the no-brain didn’t get that. 🙁
Travis definitely downplayed the whole thing as well — not what anyone discussed here at length… I thought Travis “understood” what folks were looking for — apparently NOT.
They researched, listened, and made a decision for the people. Not for Tony and FFFF. Get used to it.
…To quote a Presidential candidate: “Corporations are people, my friend”
And opinions are like azzholes. Everyone has one and they all stink.
Wow, what an original comeback — how adult…
The wisdom of the Pomona flatfoot O’Malley.
I gotta meet this guy sometime. He sure has your number and causes you undue stress. He’s whinning.
He is a whiner that’s for sure lol
Does Omaley have 24/7 to mess with you on here like me? I’m a political consultant so I have nothing but time. FFFF educated me on how to win Monday night. It worked. Struck gold.
Yes, you do have 24/7 and nothing but a poor dog to keep you company.
The glories of being an underworked, overpaid cop. You are a cop right? That’s what you’ve been peddling for a year. Now you’re telling people your a political consultant?
No. That was the imposter. I’m a PC. I wish I was a cop. Cops pay me. I’m sure DTF is slow enough for someone to post though.
And I don’t have a dog. I have two cats.
More accurately they didn’t research, listen, or make a decision for the people, they made a decision for the UNION. Possibly for compensation, possibly not, that we don’t know yet.
Baloney Bony, hard to take you serious with the stupid name, but I’ll try. You say their decision was for the people. Which people? The FPOA for certain, anyone else? Did the citizens of Fullerton gain from this? I don’t see how. That the FPD can go on burdening Fullerton with its sky-high pensions, lawsuit costs and utter lack of service? Our system relies on checks and balances, this could have been a valuable check on FPD. Not even necessarily for replacing them, but at least negotiating realistic, sustainable pay and pensions. What about all the Maintenance Services people who have been laid off? Are they not members of our community? Do you think maybe freeing up money could’ve re-hired some of them? Why do you think the streets look like hell and the sewers are way past their intended service life? Or is all this too much thinking and you’d prefer to keep defecating out the same old “not for sale”,”millionaire developer”,”protect our community” horseshit that has NOTHING to do with the discussion.
Don’t even bother responding. This cretin has been trolling here for a year because his life is sad and lonely.
Ha Tony you are brain dead. Open your eyes. You have no clue who I am. I told you I wish I lived in clairmont and worked in pamona. My name is Pete Mitchell. I’m your nemesis.
Nemesis? Right. Scary.
True. I may cause you to spend $500k by November. We will see. Candidates are lining up to split the votes and it may ruin your progress.
Yes split the votes. Incumbents win. You really are a numbskull. And not a political consultant.
Great post. Yes indeed. The stay-the-course statists left and right deal in platitudes to paper over the problems.
Unity over justice? That’s National Socialism, Communism. When ever you hear those hollow abstractions from ho;;ow minds, look out.
That’s right, we need to really LISTEN and really READ what’s being said…
Well said Fullertonista. No healing and unity can begin until ALL those responsible for the crimes against Fullerton citizens, namely Kelly Thomas, are held accountable. Hopefully there are enough frustrated people in your city to not let this issue die out like the FPD and some politicians are hoping.
While I was not surprised at the lengths the FPOA would go to protect the members genrerous benefits, it was interesting to see some of the commenters, from elsewhere chime in.
The idea that now is not the time is perhaps the most dishonest statement of all. NOW IS THE TIME. This is a complex matter and we should use EVERY BIT OF TIME we can to explore it.
To suggest a report would be “USELESS” is a lie and propaganda. Perhaps shedding light on some of the waste would lead to a change. Just like the illegal water tax.
The lesson her is simple: public employee unions and thier supporters will go to great lengths to continue to take advantage of taxpayers. NO MATTER WHAT. They will pull out all the stops including dressing in costumes, drafting clever slogans and most certainly LIYING.
Get ready.
True Serra. They have lots of money. You better get your partner to put up another 500k.
O’malley-Pete Mitchel, you two fuck headed worthless pieces of shit, both sucking the life out of tax payers and your “people”, how much did you and your “brothers” spend trying to knock Shawn Nelson out of office?
Mitchell, if you had any balls, (rhetorical phrase) you should kiss the ground Nelson walks on.
Let me tell you how much your losing cause spent: $1.3 MILLION and you got your asses wiped by sand paper for that. Boy oh boy that’s a lot of money to get fucked. LOSERS!! And everyone in the know, knows it. haha……..
Go home and whack off, you two jerk off’s know how to do that pretty good. That’s what you’ve been doing your entire lives, and people who know you well know that too. More HAHA’s…
Funny. There is another $2 million to be spent. Looks like we did our job by your post. Thanks.
Pete Mitchel, like in Maverick..Top Gun?
Agreed Tony — it was not at all what I expected to see from the newest cronies….. We seriously need to devote time to this issue NOW, before more cops abuse/murder the citizens of Fullerton.
http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/peer-into-the-thought-process-of-the-fpoa/
Thank you all for the comments. I wasn’t surprised to see the FPOA pat themselves on the back for “reforming,” or tell us they could do a better job than OCSD. That might even be true and I was grateful for the nice older ladies from Yorba Linda showing up to tell us their experiences. I would never have expected the whole FPD circus though when all that was being proposed was to get a RFP. I guess now we all know better.
The thing that bothered me the most was the way that people who are political opponents of some of the current council members used this as an opportunity to grandstand. The idea that a mere year after the Kelly Thomas killing we are going to have candidates running on a “save the FPD” platform, or stating that “the FPD is a great department” is just stunning in its disregard for the many victims of this department in its “pre-reform” period. This blog has documented many of these cases and brought them to public attention. This is not being “haters”, this is caring about justice and about police brutality. Let us continue to remind the voters and the candidates that we will not forget these victims and that neither platitudes or t-shirts are going to change anything for those who have suffered psychological trauma, physical injury, or death at the hands of those sworn to protect them.
Excellent post and thank you for doing what you do — we need stand up and be counted.
If 300 sheriff’s had showed up, it’d be a different story.
You got that right!
Why doesn’t the FPD have a Town Hall meeting. Have all the FPD there, that are not on duty? Have the residents there to ask questions. A real come to Jesus meeting. I would like to see this. To make it fare for residents that work full time, make it in the evening. As I see this, I would love to ask questions, straight to the FPD. I want them to know how I feel as a resident of Fullerton. Face to Face. Do think they can handle that?
Cg would you believe anything they say? Most people on this blog wouldn’t and wouldn’t care what they said.
NO, but it’s a small step. Just like I would not call the FPD if I had a problem. But, they need to know why I would not call them. I know they have no ethics. And it would make me feel better. Stupid uh…..
Saying TO THEIR FACES that you don’t trust them, won’t call them in an emergency, and feel they have no ethics, would surely affect them at some level. What a slap in the face — which is exactly what they need. Thugs they maybe, but to be told in such a manner how you feel IN PUBLIC with witnesses would be exactly what they need. Driving around in a black and white, in uniform, with a gun, taser, badge, and baton does NOT make them better than the very people they are hired to protect and serve — but the way they use that car, uniform, badge, taser, gun and baton definitely show how they feel about the citizens of Fullerton. And THAT is unacceptable.
And they have the option to tell residents how they feel. Like I said “A come to Jesus meeting” on both sides. As adults we should be able handle this.
Sure that sounds right — they can tell the citizens of Fullerton how much they appreciate their salaries and benefit packages lol
As adults it should be able to happen — but with the emotions running high, I don’t anticipate it being possible.
DQ you just answer for yourself. They don’t want to hear that non sense and if you feel that way then less calls for then to respond too. Simple. They really don’t care what people like you think. That’s the truth.
DQ you just answered the question. They don’t want to hear from people like you and would rather not. You not calling is less calls for service and people like you would never be happy. Simple. That’s the honest truth.
I agree with the first part of your statement, but not this part “people like you would never be happy” — what does that mean?
No matter what a cop says people on this blog will always have a better answer or a better way to do it even though they know nothing about it. Why would the cops want to heat they are overpaid from you guys? The city gave then their wages and benefits years ago. Most cops don’t even know the negotiation process. Most of the FPD cops weren’t even at the Kelly incident. The last thing they want to hear is a bunch of people from here telling them they are pieces of crap an worth nothing. Would you? With litigation they can’t talk anyways but if you went up to them on the street and said the same stuff they would say thank you and walk away. Cops don’t need to hear haters spew their BS.
I’m no cop hater — just because I disagree with allowing the cops to abuse and kill people doesn’t mean I hate them. And it hasn’t been all of them who did these things — but the “good cops” haven’t spoken up yet either…
(yes I do have that “special one” that I do loathe, but he can’t help it that he’s an alcoholic wife beater and serial slut)…
It takes a good soul to be a good cop; it takes evil to do what the thugs have done.
Yes, the city offered them their salaries and comp packages, that’s true — now they need to earn it the right way, with honor and integrity — something the FPD hasn’t had for many many years. I know. I worked there. I know what goes inside that building; I’ve seen it with my own eyes. Don’t lecture me. We NEED to be able to trust the cops, but at this point they have shown us that we CAN’T by their own actions and omissions. If they want us to back them, THEY need to pull their heads out and start conducting themselves like they WORK FOR the people of Fullerton, instead of acting like thugs and caring not for the people in the city that hired them.
“No matter what a cop says people on this blog will always have a better answer or a better way to do it even though they know nothing about it.”
Cops ARE PEOPLE. Cops are NOT GODS. GET OVER YOURSELF!!
What makes you so self-righteous and omnipotent to think that you are the only person who knows anything??
The citizens who write and comment on this blog are educated men and women who have, and know, their Constitutional rights. There most definitly IS “a better answer and a better way to do it” than to brutally MURDER an innocent, helpless, unarmed citizen!!
“Why would the cops want to heat they are overpaid from you guys? The city gave then their wages and benefits years ago.”
“The last thing they want to hear is a bunch of people from here telling them they are pieces of crap an worth nothing.”
Who, exactly, do you think “the city” is?? Do you actually believe “the city” is some nebulous entity that prints money for your paychecks each month? I have some alarming news for you; it is WE, the CITIZENS that YOU WORK FOR who make up “the city.” You definitely SHOULD care what your employers think.
You are an arrogant, unrepentant, self-righteous sociopath who thinks that no one has a right to live, or to even question your job performance, or to question your ethics,- unless you say so. And, you incorrectly believe that the citizens that you work for don’t have a right to tell you that they don’t approve of your thuggish, illegal job performance and of your abusing, raping and murdering innocent, helpless citizens.
You are wrong. We have every right to tell you to go to hell. YOU WORK FOR US. You can plug your ears if you want to, but it won’t help your cause, nor will it make your employers respect you.
Less FPD needed. It was stated at the Council Meeting that our crime has decreased. It’s because they are getting less calls.
this would expose Hughes that’s why he won’t do it… For instance; who ordered the no tolerance downtown? Hughes-ugh, that was me… next question-who ordered the cops to write a report then change it? Hughes-ugh, that was my idea…. next question- who initiated the Clarke arrest and had officers cover up Hughes” involvement? Hughes-ugh, I did…. and there’s more 🙁
True. With pending litigation they don’t say anything. Good point. That’s prolly why you haven’t seen one yet.
I agree with that for sure.
aaaaaa……no comment.
I don’t think they could handle that — too many questions opening up too many pandora’s boxes… But I agree — a townhall meeting, in the evening and let’s go to it.
No outsiders, just residents of Fullerton. No Council members, no TV cameras. Just us and them. No screamin. No talkin future litigations.
Just residents of Fullerton?? It will never happen since a former resident of Fullerton who now resides in the tony area of Irvine and is the paid consultant for the anti recall folks; yup Dick Ackerman, would not be allowed in the city hall. Now all you politicos know that lobbyists MUST be allowed in that meeting because “Money is the mother’s milk of politics”!
Get over it. It is done with.
lol right. FAR from it.
I have mentioned a meet and greet at FPD parking lot to several officers. I will try again.
Well thought out and very well stated.
**yawn** …. oh! sorry, did you say something?
I agree with Freckles. This site spends far too much time attacking people. Seems like it ran it course. Donkey Kong is cool!
I for one wouldn’t go any place to meet Fullerton cops to tell them how I feel or know my name. I don’t trust the lying a hole nohow noway. I do want to hear from seaborn! Dude what are you THINKING? DO YOU THINK YOU SOLVED ANY PROBLEMS FOR OUR CITY LAST NIGHT? YOU SIR ARE A LIER AND WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.
And NO!!!!! cowards.
And NO!!!!!!! children.
So you know that most of those speaking were Fullerton residents?
He hasn’t posted one of his newsletters yet – I’m on the list; a sad commentary about any transparency he believes in – he has had time to “explain” to those on his newsletter list why he chose to vote as he did, yet hasn’t done so.
Fullertonista – great post
Best fucking post ever!
#147 by Champion Master on August 11, 2012
Greg Diamond :
How does OCSD compare to FPD in terms of quality of policing? No one seems to have done the direct comparison.
I think that that’s the first question one should ask. Fullertonista says “no, first look at the finances.” What conclusion should I reach?
You seem to be someone here who is focused on doing the right comparison — good for you. I’ve been listening to the councilmembers, reading the bloggers and the papers, and I think that you’re giving people on and off council more credit than they deserve. What I see is consistent with “Kelly Thomas got us into office, now let’s shift gears and wage a war on public employers — to benefit rich property owners.
That may be wrong, but it’s not sophistry.
Mike Carona Ex Sheriff of OC is now doing prison time. How is that for a little justice at the
OCSD.
Duplicate comment, addressed above.
So when Jay Cicinelli goes to prison, as I hope he does, will that mean that all’s fine with Fullerton PD? I honestly don’t get your point.
Deterrent, OC is corrupt as shit.
OC is just following the fine example as provided by our government — our communist thug president, and the rest of the thugs who came before him. We’ve had very few presidents that were worthy of the office…
That was a reply to you Anonymous, sorry — apparently I didn’t hit the button quite right 🙂
I see admin is busy deleting posts tonight. What a pussy and hypocrite!
I see admin is deleting posts tonight. What a coward and hypocrite.
Tony is scared of truth speakers. He does not like people knowing truths. His delete butting does wild when he smokes his weed and truths are spoken.
Yo Greg sebourn we are still waiting….cat got your tongue or are you a coward? Still waiting…….
I want to hear from Greg AND Travis. What is their excuse??
Politics is a dirty game. You ever known a truthful politician?
Nope, not one.
So why is everyone so surprised? Did Tony actually think tey would do what he says all the time? They just used his money.
Say it ain’t so, I dare you.
http://i46.tinypic.com/2lar2j7.jpg
OK OK so its true! Fullerton spends way way too much money on policing and I bet on other costs. Its not just one union that is doing well (FPOA). A whole study of the costs of doing business in Fullerton needs to be done by Mr. Felz. He can obtain the info from other nearby cities and compare it to Fullerton and then get info on other Orange County cities that are of similar size.
Police, Fire, Administration, City Manager salaries and comparisons, pensions and health and comparisons all need to be done and accomplished before the contracts are up for renegotiation. The alternative is negotiation by screaming at city council meetings!
Agreed!
Agree Tuco. Would be a great document. Maybe someone here that has no job can do it. You would then see Fullerton falls right in the middle in everything.
Wrong Tuco, The alternate negotiation method is bankruptcy. That’s the only way you’re going to get something done.
But Detective Fuhrman. It’s not that easy to file bankruptcy. Fullerton is no where near being bankrupt. They can’t just file for fun.
I know you can’t just file for fun!! LOL! If future liabilities could bankrupt the City, it would be a tool to renegotiate those liabilities.
The only way you will fix excessive public pensions and salaries, especially on the LE side, is to void and renegotiate the contracts. Bankruptcy seems to be the only way to do that.
This will not be fixed in the “normal” political process, we’ve witnessed that. Time to mobilize the attorneys. Spending a million or two now could save Fullerton in the future.
I don’t think we can piss anyone off more than they already are! Strike when the iron is hot!
True. The iron cooled down some though. Where does the $2 million come from? Tony again?
Legal fees the city will have to absorb. Unfortunately, we are going to have to spend to save.
Anonymous cant you post here without the vulgar name calling. Gees get over yourself until you sober up.
Let the “brown shirts” oops, I was thinking of another criminal regime, let the “baby blue” shirts spew thier nonsense, Any thoughtful person can see right through thier b.s. They are thier own worst publicity. Come Nov. get out and vote, that will send the loudest, clearest message that thier little corrupt regime will not be tolerated
We will see. A few more of my peeps still have to pull papers. You will see.
A few more of your “peeps”? Just how many fathers do you have? or suspect you have?
“The penultimate goal of the justice system and those who administer it should always and invariably be justice.”
That raises the question of what the ultimate goal should be, if not justice.
Look, this is no longer about the Kelly Thomas killing. That was clear from the LA Times article and from the meeting itself. It’s about attacking public employee unions because you think that they’re paid too much, especially in pensions. The passionate phrases of the past year of seeking justice for Kelly Thomas are now passe. Now you’re just fighting about not wanting to pay as much money as your public employees want; don’t dress it up as more than that. “No justice?” C’mon.
You do not speak for me. I have been here, I am here, and will remain here, to see justice done for Kelly. I have been to the protests, the food drives, and the memorial for Kelly and God willing I will be in the courtroom when justice is done.
I count nine people replying — not one of whom seems to know what “penultimate” means.
pe·nul·ti·mate (p-nlt-mt)
adj.
1. Next to last.
2. Linguistics Of or relating to the penult of a word: penultimate stress.
n.
The next to the last.
[From Latin paenultimus; see penult.]
pe·nulti·mate·ly adv.
Do you feel better now?
A little bit.
🙂
I admit, it took me a while to realize why there was such tremendous antipathy towards you. I thought people were being a bit unfair. But now I get it.
Sorry everybody for using the word penultimate instead of ultimate. I will now cover myself with sackcloth and ashes. Any point I might have been trying to make is invalidated by my use of the wrong word, and for this, I will never forgive myself. Now if someone will please give me a samurai sword I will commit ritual seppuku.
Good for you. I mean that unironically.
Do you think that the main consideration determining whether Fullerton should switch from the FPD to OCSD should be cost?
At $10,000,000 a year? Even a fucking idiot like you could grasp that, right?
That’s best case, JC, and it’s not a particularly compelling case. Go talk to Yorba Linda about this.
But lets say, just for the sake of argument (since the advocates for the motion on Council apparently did not look this up ahead of time), that the OCSD’s services would lead to a 50% greater delay in response times and would also lead to 50% more excessive use of force incidents. Do you really leave that out of your equation?
I think you’re a dope, but I’d like to think more of you than that.
hey greg do your self a favor put the computer away, and get your self a dog! Or better yet about a dozen cats.
Careful, I see that sort of off-topic ad hominem reply as a sign of weakness.
You have the nerve to talk about excessive force in the same conversation with FPD.
Get lost.
If you want me to take you seriously, name yourself after a better President, like Chester A. Arthur.
So are you saying that it’s theoretically impossible for the FPD to have a better track record on excessive force cases than OCSD, based on your looking only at FPD’s track record?
You have the nerve to write that down? Get smart.
Are you kidding? Quit reading polls done by academic liberals. Grover was the last great president.
Zzzzzzzzzzzz…
@Fred. “Polls” by academic liberals? Whoosh, over your head.
@Joe — you should see a doctor about your logic allergy.
Come on Greg, that argument is ridiculous. Look, minimizing excessive force is the highest priority to me personally. But there is no way to estimate how many excessive force cases there would be with either FPD or OCSD in the future. Its totally guesswork. A cost estimate can be provided, and the only reason NOT to get one is fear. Fear of hurting the FPD’s feelings. And that is ludicrous.
There’s no way to estimate future excessive force cases???
How about through comparing track records of past excessive force cases?
There may be other methods that scholars and analysts use. Anyone asked one?
You seem to have read my post but missed the entire point. We can’t “come together” as a city until justice is served.
Justice will be all the incidents of this dept. ‘s misconduct coming to light and the perpetrators being punished. In the meantime, of course there is no harm to a RFP. The only “harm” is the supposed harm caused to FPOA morale. Too bad. They brought this on themselves and they are accountable.
The city voted for change. Hiring OCSD to replace FPD is certainly change. Nobody said it is necessarily a good idea or that we should definitely do it, but not looking into it is irresponsible.
You made a reasonable point that the first concern should be to ensure that OCSD would be less abusive than FPD. I agree. But chronologically that would come after the RFP as we considered their proposal, not before.
And we should not be intimidated by bullies in blue, even if its baby blue with hearts on it.
Agreed.
Agreed 100%
Why would comparing the records regarding police misconduct between OCSD and FPD come second? I would think that it would come first — unless you’re planning on deciding how many excessive use of force cases are worth that $10 million per year.
Whitaker and Kiger made it clear in the LAT story and at the meeting, that this is about cost reduction, not justice.
Duh. It would come second because if the cost savings were not significant enough it wouldn’t be worth considering. If they are, then we would need to look at the difference in quality of policing. Part of the quality of policing is police brutality. It would also come second because for OCSD to prepare a proposal is substantial work for them and minimal work for us. For us to compare their records on police brutality is substantial work for us. Of course, if you had actually thought about your question for 10 seconds before asking it you would have been able to figure that our for yourself. I hope.
Wait a minute — there would be no reason to consider a change if the cost savings were not significant? What if OCSD cost the same — but its record showed that it could reduce incidents of excessive force, etc., by half? The change would then not be “worth considering”?
You’re just making my point — you’re thinking entirely about money while pretending to be thinking about effective and honest policing. You should just own up to it.
That can’t be estimated. Even using past figures (complaints vs. police contacts) that can’t be estimated since we would never be given access to data on complaints. Your position is ridiculous. You are basically saying that if city council members or bloggers or citizens of Fullerton are concerned about the cost of policing then they MUST NOT be concerned about excessive force. Huh?
If I accept your premise that this information can’t be estimated, then of course your conclusion follows. As I’ve said, I do not accept your premise; my sense from my background in social science academia is that sociologists in the criminal justice area estimate this sort of thing routinely.
As our disagreement here comes from our different premises, I don’t take it personally and you don’t either. I hope that you would grant that if one CAN estimate such things, it would make sense to do so — in my opinion even before cost estimates, but in any event as well as costs.
Yes. If it could be done, and if the data was available, it would make sense to do it. I just don’t think that past frequency of cases will necessarily predict future ones, and I don’t think the data are available. I have never seen an academic report trying to estimate “future cases of police brutality” but its not my area of specialization either.
You know what? This is a rational disagreement based on differing premises. I have no problem with it. As I think I’ve said, I wish that this was a conducive environment to having such a discussion, because it gets at one of the core problems. Unfortunately, if we discuss it here we’ll put Joe Sip to sleep.
“Unfortunately, if we discuss it here we’ll put Joe Sip to sleep”
And everyone else.
Hey dimwit, what’s wrong with attacking public employee unions because I think that they’re paid too much, especially in pensions? They are.
The corollary issue is why do I have to pay $10,000,000 more per year for a rogue department that nobody has any control over? You Fullerton cop apologists keep wanting to make this just about Kelly Thomas, because at a bare minimum, you can’t ignore it.
There is a documented Culture of Corruption in the FPD including sex assaults, theft, perjury, false arrest, theft, destroying evidence, fraud, etc., etc. You people never talk about that do you? It doesn’t fit your “the Kelly Thomas ‘contact” was a one-off event.” It wasn’t. And if you had any shame you might even be ashamed of yourself for going along with that shameless cop strategy.
Greg, before you sanctimoniously lecture us again on differentiating public expenditures with the quality of policing, read all of the following links. All or mostly stories broken by this blog which you love to hate. All involving corruption and misconduct by Fullerton police. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Now do you understand why seeking alternatives to this department’s existence is not only economic but also out of concern for public safety?
http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/the-joyride-from-hell-another-victim-of-fullerton-police-violence-comes-forward/
http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/more-thayer-thuggery/
http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2012/oh-damn-another-fpd-brutality-lawsuit-in-federal-court/
http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2012/more-bad-news-for-fullerton-taxpayers-another-lawsuit-against-fpd-and-manny-ramos/
http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/the-wrongful-incarceration-of-emmanuel-martinez/
http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/the-gang-that-cant-shoot-straight-or-worse/
http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/oh-no-not-again/
The best kept secret in California is the extent to which the FPD has broken down into a criminal enterprise. Ponsi and the Register absolutely refuse to connect the dots. The local liberal blogs have their heads shoved up their rectums. No public employee union member can do wrong.
Thank God for FFFF.
And a hearty amen to that. Between the facts, the spotlight of this blog and the economic forces the perfect storm is brewing for reform. It is inevitable.
How many times do I have to repeat that I think that Jay Cicinelli belongs in jail and that if Ramos and Wolfe were not following the FPD’s policies (which I suspect they were) they should be personally liable? How do you square that with what you wrote?
Greg, if you are not going to bother to answer simple queries such as “are you aware of all of these other cases” to which I provided links, you are just establishing that you are not really worth talking to.
There is an economic reason to ask OCSD for an estimate, and there is also the reason that the FPD has a record of brutality and many of the officers guilty of abuse have not been disciplined as far as know, and certainly many of them have not been terminated. Now do you understand?
Nista.
Since I’m new here help me.
What instances of corruption, abuse, theft, etc occurred in the last 13 months?
What cops involved in those acts have not been disciplined and are still on the streets? I don’t care about the 3 that responded to Kelly to answer the call for help. I don’t feel they should get anything but I want to hear about all this other stuff you talk about.
I see good progress with FPD. Bunch of cops no longer there. Good discipline it appears.
But you seem to have other info. I just want to know all this recent corruption that I’m missing. I also don’t care about all the cops getting on the lawn saying they are clean and think all the Kelly cops are dirty. We know that. Ant and won’t happen for another 1-2 years.
There are links 5 comments before your last one. There are a lot more, and there are also incidents that people in the community are aware of in which complaints were never filed, because the victims of police brutality were too intimidated or traumatized by their “contacts.”
We have no idea how many have been disciplined because we are not allowed to know.
We DO know that Hampton and Nguyen perjured themselves in the Veth Mam. We know that Thayer and Tong have been accused of actions that are tantamount to felonies. They walk the earth free men without even an inquiry. The list goes on and on.
We know that the cops who stood helped suffocate Kelly Thomas and stood around as he gasped his last sentient breaths were left on the streets and would be back on the street again if ‘Chief Danny” got his way.
What we don’t don’t know is how Chief Danny can deny all the wrongdoing of cops under HIS command. Of course we know why he does it.
I’m glad you see “progress.” It means you acknowledge to some degree all the fuck ups.
I know generally what the grievances against the FPD are. You guys list all of these things all of the time. I also know that you apparently don’t compare them to the grievances that could be made against the OCSD or other departments — which is the part that worries me. You have to compare them! OCSD could be better in this respect — or worse! Don’t you understand?
I listed a whole bunch of cases of OCSD abuses just the other day on this blog. People on this blog have been talking about OCSD abuses for months, if not years. Why do you insinuate that bloggers or city council people who are in favor of getting a bid from OCSD must not be at all concerned with excessive force incidents? Do you think that nobody is capable of walking and chewing gum simultaneously?
The people on here, on city council, and in Fullerton in general are one hell of a lot smarter and have a hell of a lot more integrity than you give us credit for. Your argument is nothing but sophistry. It assumes that if one is concerned with money than one cannot be concerned with anything else. That is just absurd.
How does OCSD compare to FPD in terms of quality of policing? No one seems to have done the direct comparison.
I think that that’s the first question one should ask. Fullertonista says “no, first look at the finances.” What conclusion should I reach?
You seem to be someone here who is focused on doing the right comparison — good for you. I’ve been listening to the councilmembers, reading the bloggers and the papers, and I think that you’re giving people on and off council more credit than they deserve. What I see is consistent with “Kelly Thomas got us into office, now let’s shift gears and wage a war on public employers — to benefit rich property owners.
That may be wrong, but it’s not sophistry.
“and that if Ramos and Wolfe were not following the FPD’s policies (which I suspect they were) they should be personally liable? ”
“See these fists? They’re getting ready to fuck you up.”
That’s policy?
No, but sometimes those words have to be used for someone to comply. It was ok’d by a Retired Capt. From FPD. He went to all the briefing and told all the officers those words have to be used in situations.
no Greg, that is media’s impression that it gives to the gullible public.
The first issue is police brutality in its severest form, murder.
the second issue was the collusion between Fullerton’s city council and its police force to hide FPD’s history of abuse upon its community, evidenced by its frequent legal settlements to FPD victims.
the last issue, though not tied in to the first two, is the future bankrupting of fullerton with salaries and pensions based on speculation from a bubble economy.
Greg, I believe you intentionally confuse the first with the third issue to accuse people of only wanting to bust unions.
we, the good people of fullerton, deserve better treatment than what the Fullerton PD and fullerton city council have rendered to the community of fullerton. we don’t deserve to be murdered, beaten, falsely imprisoned and molested by our local law enforcement who once confidently knew their actions were protected by its elected officials.
Greg, do you have a problem with disbanding a rogue police because it belongs to a union?
If evil neer-do-wells formed a union, would you be equally sympathetic to them because they are union members?
Well said!
thank you
No, I do not have a problem with it.
Review the tape of the meeting, noting how much Whitaker and Kiger (and for that matter Sebourn) spoke about reform in the quality of policing versus about cost-cutting (and, in Kiger’s case, using leverage to force union concessions.)
For me, the first issue you raise is paramount. From what they’re saying, I don’t think that that’s true of the FFFFster caucus on Council.
I agree with your penultimate paragraph. Apparently people will have to look it up to see what that means.
There is nothing wrong with cost-cutting. The only way that your argument would make any sense would be if the council decided to cut costs in the certainty that doing so would result in increased excessive force incidents. Since that has not happened, and is in my view impossible to happen, your argument is based on an unlikely hypothetical and can be dismissed out of hand.
You honestly don’t see how, other things being equal, cutting costs would be likely to result in increased excessive force incidents? It’s sort of like how cutting costs in building materials is likely to lead to more broken roads and bridges.
What I’d expect to see, if quality of policing is the first priority, is for it to be mentioned at times like Tuesday night rather than being subordinated to anti-pension bloodlust.
I see where you are coming from now, but I don’t agree at all. I view a lot of what police do as not particularly necessary, so having less of them doing it or doing it more cheaply doesn’t raise a red flag for me at all.
That meeting was so stacked with cops and their supporters that people like myself who would have talked about police brutality as a reason to look into OCSD never got a chance. I couldn’t stay there all night.
There will be other Council meetings. Right now I’d take the odds on Sebourn moving for reconsideration when the coast is clear — which I presume has been the point of most of the reaction here.
I have no problem with talking about police brutality in front of cops. They need to hear it — and this isn’t the only place where I’m willing to just ignore what people think if need be.
It is very imperative and moneywise to clean house. The FPD has demonstrated that they will not clean out the animals. The FPD has to be disbanded. ASAP.
I agree 100%
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7SkrYF8lCU
Love that movie lol
Sebourn. Still waiting for your explanation. You have some explaining to do to the people who elected you. We elected you and we have expectations of honesty and integrity. So far have been waiting with no response from you. If you cant perform then maybe you should resign? MAN UP AND TALK TO US THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR YOU.
Excellent post, beautiful logic that sets us above the noise heard at Fullerton’s last city council meeting.
Succintly put, this is why the Fullerton Police Department must be disbanded “But there are a few things which cannot be compromised, and the main one of these is justice. Remember, we were not too long ago faced with a situation in which police drove around Fullerton, randomly pulled people over, beat them savagely and sadistically, and then falsely arrested them. What sort of compromise could there be in cases like this? That police officers are given a mild talking-to instead of being terminated and prosecuted? What kind of compromise can we forge with those who would bludgeon an unarmed and innocent man like Kelly Thomas to death, or those who would shield the men who did?”
Our nation’s Constitution arose from British tyranny who used their military to maintain the degrading mercantilist economy upon the colonists. Unreasonable taxes, invasion of privacy, physical abuse, false imprisonment, in essence suspension of justice was the norm before desperate people rebelled against the British and replaced mercantilism with enlightened government that valued the individual more than the collective good, always only good for those few in power.
However, our own city council saw no problem with illegal water tax, promoted booze courts that posed a constant danger to Fullerton with its drunken violence in exchange for more money in the form of taxes, used our taxes laundered as redevelopment funds to bully the populace out of their homes and businesses by using eminent domain to install their personal vision of Fullerton that seemed to guarantee more tax dollars sucked into city of fullerton’s coffers.
And how did the good people of fullerton benefit from this arrangement? They didn’t. Instead the people of Fullerton saw city of Fullerton employees’ salaries and pensions soar to economic heights that ensured our city’s future bankruptcy.
Meanwhile, Fullerton city council persons, before the last recall, seem to have unnatural political longevity supported by political contributions from city of Fullerton employee unions and developers with redevelopment funded contracts with the city.
And those who interfered with Fullerton’s downtown booze courts profits, like the disabled, homeless Kelly Thomas, were roughed up, rousted, falsely imprisoned, murdered and molested by the long arm of Fullerton’s city council’s desire to preserve its mercantilist economy that always profits those in power.
Before Fullerton city council’s last recall, the old regime saw the city of Fullerton as their personal domain that existed to financially profit themselves and cronies. And the constituents they promised to serve and protect were reduced to nothing more than cattle branded their cash cows not worthy of the human rights guaranteed through our Constitution. And for those who got out of line and messed with their mercantilist system, then the city council called out its troops, the Fullerton PD, to beat the public into submission.
As the colonists rebelled against tyranny and kicked out the British troops, so must we, the good people of Fullerton, must kick out the last remnant of Jones, Bankhead and Mckinley’s tyranny, the Fullerton PD that did not serve justice but these three recalled and disgraced city council members and their cronie/sycophants.
and this is my opinion
Are you part of the Occupy coalition?
Van is part of a very tiny coalition – knowledgeable and deep thinkers.
why thank you for the compliment, fullertonista. I will carry your complement with me for the rest of the day and it will get me through this heat wave
no.
You do realize, Van, that the British never “really” left? Who do you think runs the Federal Reserve Bank along with their cronies?
I thought China with its artificially depressed currency, and its frequent loans to the US made this country the owner of the US Federal Reserve?
The UK has speculated on bundled bad investments along with the rest of us and it may be a shadow of its former self.
Anyhoo, doesn’t it take a global economic village to raise another Great Depression?
“‘… The most powerful men in the United States were themselves answerable to another power, a foreign power, and a power which had been steadfastly seeking to extend its control over the young republic since its very inception. The power was the financial power of England, centered in the London Branch of the House of Rothschild. The fact was that in 1910, the United States was for all practical purposes being ruled from England, and so it is today’ (Mullins, p. 47-48).
He further commented that the day the Federal Reserve Act was passed, “the Constitution ceased to be the governing covenant of the American people, and our liberties were handed over to a small group of international bankers” (Ibid, p. 29).”
http://www.usagold.com/federalreserve.html
“Money Changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance.”
– James Madison, 4th U.S. President, and Chief Architect of the Constitution
“Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes its laws.”
– Mayer Amschel Rothschild
“Whoever controls the money, controls the flow of wealth.”
– Fr. Charles Coughlin
“The spirit of war has been procured by money lenders.”
– Thomas Jefferson
“War was[is] largely a matter of money.”
– Bernard Baruch
“War is a racket.”
— Major General Smedley Butler
http://www.heartcom.org/MoneyChangers.htm
When I listened to those blue-shirted thug supporters at the Council meeting their oratories from the bully pulpit were based on hype and emotion (ie. “Officer Friendly coaches my son’s soccer team. He’s such a wonderful man who is loved by all. Why would you want to punish him?”) 🙂
Naturally the speaker didn’t say whether Officer Friendly has taken a public stand against the accused murderers who bludgeoned a 135 lbs. homeless man to death on the streets of Fullerton, huh?
Did Officer Friendly willfully contribute to the defense fund for the accused murderers caught on tape bashing in the head of a schizophrenic?
Did Officer Friendly provide security for the accused murderers once charged with thier crimes?
What exactly did Officer Friendly do?
And what percent of the FPD rank ‘n file are “Officer Friendly’s” who put on a good show of being fine ethical and moral upstanding citizens in the community yet refuse to wag their fingers at the dirty ones who they work side by side with everyday?
Cops who cover for bad cops are no better than the bad cops themselves.
And that is the honest to God truth.
THAT is a point I have been making as well — none of the “officer friendly’s” have stepped up to point the finger at the thugs. They must be too afraid to do so, or complicit in the covering up of thuggery.
“Cops who cover for bad cops are no better than the bad cops themselves” is absolutely right. And that is the truth!
Litigation means silence. Complete silence. Them talking admits guilt of some kind.
We know that lol We’re not grade-schoolers here RPA lol
He prefers to be called O’Malley.
“Litigation means silence. Complete silence. Them talking admits guilt of some kind”
That’s total bullcrap.
Even after these cases are litigated and adjudicated and completed STILL none of the rank ‘n file cops step forward and publicly denounce or condemn the bad ones. Which makes them NO BETTER than the guilty cops themselves!
Stop hiding behind the legal system. We are tired of your excuses.
Cops are morally bankrupted, from top to bottom.
It’s laughable that you tell others how to live their lives!!! 😀
That’s the problem and some more truth for ya!
I know the feeling!
Your a FUCKNUT!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂
I ❤ Screen Tests – Officer Thayer
I ❤ Perjury – Officer Hampton
I ❤ False Arrests – Officer Ngyuen
I ❤ Torture – Officer Tong
I ❤ Barry – Officer Kirk
I ❤ Pork Chops – Officer Coffman
Add
I HEART Video cameras put on Rincons Chest.
Don’t forget;
I <3 The police who beat my son to death-Ron Thomas
Mike Carona Ex Sheriff of OC is now doing prison time. How is that for a little justice at the
OCSD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Carona
Wow and right on!
Yeah, convicted on what, one out of nine charges? That was too close of a call for my comfort. At any rate, it says little about the overall state of the department. You can read boxes full of Scott Moxley on this; I don’t think he’d reach the conclusion that Carona’s conviction was inevitable. It took hard work — including his own.
Would have been better to convict on all nine, but even one got him years in prison and stopped his corrupt behavior. And I agree, it was too close for comfort..
I am glad Golem that you have finely found your purgatories in “F”FFF
Now the Hell is next stop.
How can you do a direct comparison of something as intangible as “quality of policing”? What measurement standard could you use? Arrests per officer? That wouldn’t tell you anything about justice. Officer complaints? Those records would be private. There is no way to measure quality of policing beyond the public’s perception of its quality, which is not necessarily representative of its real quality. So of course it would be great to have data to compare the two departments but that data doesn’t exist, so you go with what does exist, cost differences.
As far as waging a war against some public employees: there are two main reasons for this. One is that some public employees appear to have been waging a war on us. Rather than taking that, we should fight back. The second is that there seems to be a large amount of waste and fairly exorbitant salaries and benefits to certain classes of public employees. Also politicians seem to enact policy that enriches and empowers some public employees in return for support for these public employee’s unions. Doesn’t this seem contrary to the public’s interest if it is the case? Shouldn’t concerned citizens try to lessen the power of public police unions in the interest of the rights and freedoms of the public?
Finally, how do we know that enacting policies which cut overall compensation to certain classes of public employees would end up lowering property taxes? That money could be shifted towards hiring other classes of public employees, or paying for repair of critical infrastructure, for example. Even if we did achieve cost reductions from our budget towards public safety we have no knowledge of where that money might be directed or how much would be needed to meet unfunded liabilities.
And in the worst case scenario, which you seem to suspect is that all the changes in Fullerton are motivated by the ideological and financial interests of one particular property owner, this would be a very inefficient strategy since it would have been less expensive to simply bribe or make nice with prior city councils. So I’m afraid that explanation doesn’t make much sense either.
The simplest and most obvious explanation would just go something like this:
pissed-of citizens angry about abusive law enforcement and government waste and corruption want to get another estimate for law enforcement from whoever is interested, and are not afraid to send a message to our police force that their prior conduct has rendered them at least potentially replaceable.
Jt, please do not even bother with him. He is one of those blog losers who doesn’t know what he is talking about but will keep arguing until the room is empty. I wish I could hook him up with Jerbal Cunningham and let them yammer away at each other in perpetuity.
My response to the beginning of Jt’s comment is right below. People can judge on their own whether I seem to have a point or whether you seem to be defensive in dismissing it without consideration.
To your credit, I think that you’re uninterested in understanding these points rather than too stupid to do so if you chose. That’s just a hypothesis, though.
Zzzzzzzzz…
“Zzzzzzzzz”…………… Hmmmmmm
Please notice that Golem as a clandestine agenda and based on that agenda he is doing excellent job.
See — only Stanley truly understands me!
(That’s a joke, Stanislaw. Wishing you pleasant dreams. Soon.)
Folks, as you can see such agenda can’t be disclosed because its carries inherent paradox as shown by Golem.
Officer complaints would be a good place to start. While you won’t get identifying information from the records, you may be able to get “envelope information” that doesn’t open the file for identifying the accused but simply gives basic information about the nature and resolution of the complaint. Or maybe some agency like the Attorney General’s Office or DOJ could do (or already does!) such reports.
Seriously, there’s a whole field of academic study related to these sorts of questions. I’m not part of it, although I’ve heard occasional papers from people who are. The idea that there’s no way to study it simply seems unlikely.
Even if that was true, you are talking about contacting criminologists and commissioning a study comparing the quality of OCSD and FPD, and their track records on brutality. I think POBOR would make it impossible to get enough data, and even if you could I don’t see how it is practical for a city council to commission such a study. Theoretically it is possible, but it is a great deal of work and would cost quite a bit of money.
Getting a bid from OCSD would be easier. I think we can agree that cost and quality are both important. I think we agree that quality is more important. But I don’t agree that cost and quality are necessarily related.
I think that Fullerton will probably want to keep its police force because of the advantages of local control and the questionable (see Yorba Linda) bids put out by OCSD — but it’s not a given. I could be convinced — and largely I’m interested in how the Yorba Linda relative (probably the closest to Fullerton’s prospective experience, although Stanton’s problems with OCSD are also instructive) plays out.
Aside from my irritation at this being (1) about cost and (2) about leverage, my irritation here is about timing. This is just, seriously, a stupid and provocative time to do it. It’s going to be exhibit 1 when the charge is that the City engaged in bad faith negotiations — as may happen if any of this ends up going to court for whatever reason. It’s playing to the grandstands — these here grandstands.
The FPOA isn’t going to refuse to renew the contract for the extra year in 2014; if that’s a real concern, renegotiate that option now to make that last year mandatory. Then, with expiration in mid-2015, if you’re SERIOUS about considering options, get the OCSD bid process underway in January 2014. That leaves plenty of time for negotiations — and it’s NORMAL union negotiations instead of “teaching them a lesson” and trying to cow them.
One place you and I differ is that you think that this is being driven by improved quality of service (especially as per excessive use of force) and cost-savings. I think that the former is unknown and the latter is probably spurious. I think that this — right now — is being driven by hatred of public employee unions and a desire to get in a punch against them. I don’t feel any responsibility to respect that. I may respect other reasons, but not that one.
There is a reason it is about the FPOA. They are not generally representative of public employee unions, which are usually at least harmless in the sense of “they don’t directly cause people harm.” This is not big-business anti-Wobblies union busting, this is concern over governmental power as manifest in particular organizations, such as this one. If this was all anti-teachers union it wouldn’t have legs because frankly, nobody really cares that much since the teachers aren’t killing and assaulting people. Its also about the arrogance of law enforcement and how their organizations insist that the public needs them and must support them whatever they do. Maybe its time to make an example out of one of these departments to show the rest of them that the citizens can be empowered to dispense with government entities which are not serving the public good? I’m on the fence about FPD vs. OCSD but I understand people who would like to just start over. They should at least be able to speak and we should at least have data on the cost differences without being intimidated.
I agree with your last sentence. If this were happening outside of the larger anti-public-union agenda I see, both locally and nationally, I’d be much more inclined to agree with your analysis.
“Think of a country which experiences unity as it unjustly attacks and wages war against another country; or enslaves a race; or discriminates against certain classes of individuals”.
Sounds like Isreal.
Sounds like the US Government. We are all debt slaves here…
Zzzzzzzz…
I guess that a proper syllogism would put you into a persistent vegetative state.
If we don’t replace the FPD as soon as posible we the taxpayers will be paying all the corrupt cops phony disability cases. Expect the FPD to begin exiting ASAP on disability pensions.