Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want the abandoned Union Pacific Park reopened. It was a crime-ridden attractive nuisance from the day it opened even without considering the toxic substances that had to be remediated after the damn thing was built.
But there seems to be an interesting reason the park hasn’t been reopened 18 months after the City Council ordered the fence around the vacant land be taken down. And the reason could be that there isn’t enough money in the Park Dwelling Fee Fund to pay for it. These funds are collected from developers to pay for new park facilities, presumably to reflect the new projected increase in population.
This situation emerged at a Fiscal Sustainability Committee meeting a while back. The Fund has about $800,000 to $900,000, according to Assistant City Manager Daisy Perez, and at least $300,000 of that is already earmarked for the delusional “Trail to Nowhere” plan. It also emerged that the massive eyesore project called “The Hub,” on Commonwealth at the 57 Freeway, has not paid it’s Park Dwelling Fees, a number amounting to $5,000,000, staff said.
We gotta go up!
It seems that for some reason the City gave the developer of the project a waiver on the required upfront fees, until the project has a certificate of occupancy. That $5 million is burning a hole in somebody’s pocket, and it sure ain’t our pocket. How this happened is another story, and a good one, too, I’ll bet.
In the meantime, we seem to have some sort of Mexican Standoff – UP Park vs. Trail to Nowhere. The Park is assumed to have been given priority, but there’s no money for it. Meantime the Trail to Nowhere waits in the wings, embarrassingly, having missed several entrance cues demanded by the State, the most important of which were submission of plans by 6/24; start of construction by 8/24; and viable plant life by 10/25.
The idea may have been bad, but it sure was old.
One of the selling points of the Trail to Nowhere is that it connected to the UP Park (of course that was another lie, too – it ends at Highland Avenue). But what if there is no UP Park at all?
A Friend forwarded this post election statement by Vivian “Kitty” Jaramillo:
Poor Kitty. Done in by “dirty tricks” of some unmentioned sort – despite all the hard work put in by her team. Team Jaramillo. The crew that discovered, recruited, hand-held phony “Republican” Scott Markowitz, and who even wrote his MAGA ballot statement to draw votes away from Jaramillo’s opponent. Markowitz pleaded guilty to perjury and falsification of public documents. No mention of that in her farewell address.
There is a big shout out to the UFCW union that laundered $60,000 of out-of-town marijuana lobby money to buy mailers and pro-Jaramillo precinct walkers. Lots and lots of them who harassed each voter multiple times in order to elect Jaramillo.
Kitty says now the pressure is on to see if there will be improvements in D4, the district she created for herself to win. Some irony there, eh? There is already an improvement.
Thoughts and prayers…
She wishes the best for the City Manager and City employees (not counting the cops and firepeople who endorsed her opponent). No mention of the people of Fullerton who never seemed to be on her self-centered radar. But we we knew her priority was city workers, because that’s what she volunteered to the OC Register in another foot-shooting moment.
Employees present and past love Kitty. Yes, massive six-figure pensioners, keep on truckin.’
Despite claiming to be an agent of civility, Kitty can’t resist to take a swipe at the “other two knuckleheads,” presumably Jung and Dunlap.
Before she waddles off down the Trail to Nowhere to make tamales, Kitty reminds us again of the unfairness of it all. Apparently “good guys” couldn’t get past the finish line because somehow, the “red line” kept moving. I have no idea what this lament is about because she and Team Jaramillo did cross the finish line, whatever color it may have been. She just wasn’t in first place when she did cross it.
Well, now Vivian can go back to just being an annoying, self-important busybody who can’t do any damage; a boil on the butt of Fullerton: irritating but not dangerous.
If the current situation in the District 4 election remains unchanged, Jamie Valencia will be the newest member of the Fullerton City Council.
Anyone else?
Will she, like her soon to be predecessor Bruce Whitaker, form a reliable majority with Nick Dunlap and Fred Jung? I don’t know. But supposing she will, it’s fun to speculate on what issues, if any, could be in the offing for Fullerton’s future.
Hitching to Desert Center
Remember, Friends, that Dunlap, Jung and Whitaker have never really bucked City Hall bureaucratic authority, with the singular exception of getting rid of hapless City Manager, Ken Domer, and that happened after four or five months of dithering.
It’s a total waste of money, but it sure is short…
Would a new council majority be willing to take on any sort of real policy direction? Would it be willing to reverse awful decisions made previously? We may consider such City Hall monstrosities as the Walk on Wilshire and the equally stupid Trail to Nowhere as projects crying out for their plugs to be pulled. What about the “boutique” hotel that morphed into a monster, high density boondoggle, whose “developer” has a series of bankruptcies and judicial losses to his credit?
Still crazy after all these years…
What about Mario Marovich’s “bump out” building addition, a theft of public property over 20 years ago that still squats there on the Commonwealth Avenue sidewalk, despite an agreement with Marovich that should have gotten rid of it 16 months ago?
Business is booming…
Hey! What are we going to do about the public money drain known as Downtown Fullerton? Anybody willing to discuss a bar tax on the people who have been making tens of millions off of us over the past 20 years?
It’s not a cliff dwelling. We have indoor plumbing!
And then there’s the deplorable “6th Cycle Housing Element” to the Fullerton General Plan, a program of mass housing mandates that, if effected, would destroy the City. SO far the Council has shown no sales resistance to the idea of 13,000 new residential units, even as their staff has cooked up a plan for 30,000.
Are there personnel changes that might happen, that ought to happen? Will there be new policies demanding accountability by our well-paid and benefitted staff? Would a new council majority put a halt to the staff penchant for drumming up Astroturf support for its boondoggles?
Staying awake long enough to break the law…
And let’s not forget the good folks who make bank on us dispensing the worst legal advice imaginable over the past 30 years without any accountability for losses, bungling, conflicts of interest; yes, the I can’t Believe It’s a Law Firm of Jones and Myers who oversaw and vigorously pursued the lawsuit against Joshua Ferguson, David Curlee and the FFFF blog itself.
Is change coming? Anything is possible, I suppose, but this is Fullerton, and Fullerton, being Fullerton, no idea is too stupid to die.
And of course Cannabis Kitty Jaramillo could be the beneficiary of her followers’ petitions to the Almighty for the “good guys” to win. In which case, other sorts of changes will be coming, none of them good, which would be the subject of another post.
In the meantime, let’s go ahead, Friends. Let’s indulge ourselves in speculation, and even more importantly, sharing what we think are good ideas.
There’s a couple things we know about the Kennedy Sisters, Sharon and Skaskia, the people who bring to Fullerton their confused mix of opinion, “news,” innuendo and spite known as The Fullerton Observer.
It has long been a purveyor of hard left perspective, in 1994 joining the establishment in a hearty defense of anything cooked up in the bowels of City Hall. There has been no crackpot idea, no new tax, no illegal venture that they were not willing to defend, ignore, obfuscate as they thought the situation demanded.
Why write about news when you can try to make your own! (Photo by Julie Leopo/Voice of OC)
The Kennedys have also believed in the completely unethical practice of joining in making the news. Why simply report on something honestly when one could involve oneself in actually drumming up support for some harebrained idea if it checked the right box? And the right box was about virtue signaling, to wit: it didn’t matter if something made sense, or was even legal, so long as it sent the message you believed in. Efficacy matters not; it’s the gesture that counts, see?
And so things like the Trail to Nowhere and the Wank on Wilshire were the Observer subjects not just of editorial approbation, but active organization and dissemination of misinformation.
These two characteristics lead, in course, to sanctimony and self-righteousness; and the belief that one’s political piety must be accompanied by active participation. These traits are to be expected in political parties and their minions, but are forbidden in the precincts of ethical journalism.
Okay, Joe, I hear you saying. But the Observer is not a professional journal or an ethical one, and we always knew it. Well, you’re right, of course. However this issue could be bigger than an illegal water tax here, a cop cover up there, or a look-the-other-way when a few million are wasted once in a while. This is about an honest election.
Yes, I was a phony from Day 1. And it was obvious…
FFFF knew almost immediately that the candidacy of Scott Markowitz was a scam. The facts were so clear and so pernicious that only one intelligent conclusion could be drawn. The man was a plant to interfere in an election by diverting Republican votes away from Linda Whitaker to Markowitz. The beneficiary of the scam was Vivian Jaramillo, the favored candidate of the Democrat Party and the Observer crowd. And the Kennedy Sisters never made any attempt to even explore the possibility that the obvious conclusion was correct.
Instead, the Kennedys, Soeur et Soeur, ignored the story in the Observer, and in internet conversations actually pretended that Markowitz was a legitimate candidate – until the news broke that he had been arrested for perjury. After Markowitz pleaded guilty to perjury they talked about how he “dropped out” of the race, even though his name was still on the ballot. Even then their emphasis turned to “unrelated” conspiracy theories” submitted to the DA by Tony Bushala.
See my badge? I’m a real reporter!!
In the meantime Sharon Kennedy had been active on social media trying extremely hard divert attention to the irrelevant. She posited the ridiculous idea that maybe Markowitz was afraid to leave his house for candidate forums because he feared for his safety – after a mean threat on a blog that somebody should go to his house and talk to him. She volunteered unsolicited information that her pal and fellow “Observer,” Diane Vena, was a “kind” person and that she simply signed the nomination papers of a MAGA-sounding Republican candidate “at the request of a friend.”
Sharon Kennedy’s conversation with Vena is where ethical debasement and self-righteous political ideology climbed onto the same small raft with honesty. What was said between them, precisely, we’ll never know. But we do know that the conversation had nothing about it that looked like honest journalism, and may well, in fact, have included both coaching, and a plan to respond to criticism from FFFF. If this is what happened then the Kennedys went from negligent reporting to participating in an effort to hide the activities of the conspirators in this slimy episode.
An honest person, let alone an “incubator of journalism,” would have gotten the name of the “friend” who convinced the evidently doltish Vena to sign Markowitz’s papers, even though she had already endorsed Vivian Jaramillo and actually appeared on the latter’s website. An honest journalist would also have gotten the name of the person who circulated the nomination papers. Maybe Sharon Kennedy did get the name, or names. But if she did, neither she nor her sister ever shared it with Observer readers.
So very popular…
It’s abundantly clear that the Fullerton Observer had no intention reporting on the Markowitz story. The aim was to distance the candidacy of their favored Vivian Jaramillo from what had really happened
I also note that in the same vein, the Kennedy Sisters have been completely mute about the massive influx of marijuana lobbyist cash into a pro-Jaramillo Independent Expenditure PAC, with the loot laundered through the national office of the grocery workers union. There’s another story we’ll never read about in the pages or website of the Fullerton Observer, although they have never shied away from reporting this sort of thing with the attendant innuendo when it came to people they didn’t like.
But very soon, I predict, we’ll hear all about the money contributed by Tony Bushala.
The results of the November 2024 Fullerton elections are almost settled.
School bonds L and N passed comfortably. And why not? The districts used your money to educate you, and the beholden contractors, trades, architects et al. spent $300,000 to put us all farther into debt. Yea! Property taxes and rents and the cost of commerce are going up. But, hey, it’s all for the kids, right?
The designated driver is on the way…
In the City Council 2nd District election, Mayor Nick Dunlap pummeled the old warhorse, Jan Flory, whose try at a 4th time around the track came out of the gate without a rider. The result so far is a massive 28 point victory.
There seemed to be some confusion…
In the 1st District, incumbent Fred Jung walloped a guy named Matt Truxaw, who can now retreat back into the murky obscurity from which he was trolled by Ahmad Zahra. This one wasn’t close, either – a 44 point gap
Nurse Jamie looking good…
The 4th District is close – real close. Newcomer Jamie Valencia leads OC Dem Central darling Vivian “Kitty” Jaramillo, a woman whose candidacy was so shaky the Dem Party created a phony non-Latino candidate to help her out. Right now the difference is about 130 votes in Valencia’s favor. Can late mail-in ballots save Kitty’s litter? We’ll probably know by the end of the day. Linda Whitaker, who didn’t seem to campaign at all finished a distant third. But we see you there, Scott Markowitz, the perjurer set up to help Jaramillo. He has 766 votes right now, enough to suggest that his phony candidacy could be considered to be an effective element in the election. Cause for legal action? That would be fun.
The anointing oil was greasy and left fingerprints, and didn’t take…
A Valencia victory would certainly be the bitterest pill for Ahmad Zahra and Shana Charles and all the other Dem small fry like Sharon Quirk and Josh Newman. More importantly, it would solidify a common sense approach to the stupidity and turbidity of City Hall inventions like the Trail to Nowhere, the Wank on Wilshire, the boutique hotel disaster, etc. Even more significantly it will affect the issue of liberal marijuana dispensaries in Fullerton – Zahra’s pet cause.
The Fullerton Observer Sisters can be counted on to bemoan a Jaramillo loss and blame evil developer influences for having the temerity to tell the truth about poor Kitty.
Looking Heavenward for help…
Speaking of Newman, he is currently losing his State Senate job to the dopey librarian from Irvine, Steven Choi, for which we would be eternally grateful if it holds. He would leave a ridiculous, gerrymandered district he couldn’t win as his lasting legacy. He’s 14,000 votes behind, which is a lot, but of course late ballot counts could change that over the days ahead – like they did for him in 2016.
The power couple looks a lot less powerful these days…
Quirk won as expected, but with a Jaramillo loss and the possible defeat of her hand-picked elementary school board candidate, Vanesa Estrella, she may have some political throw-weight problems, especially in a run for County Supervisor in two years. But that school board election is close. Incumbent Leonel Talavares is only ahead by 46 votes this morning.
Bye, bye, Sugar…
Another bright note is the victory of some guy named James Cho in another elementary school board race. He crushed forever incumbent Hilda Sugarman, and good riddance there, too. There may not be much of a practical difference but cleaning out the cobwebs is always a good idea.
You really have to hand it to the Kennedy sisters, Skaskia and Sharon. They are on the verge of perfecting dumbass hypocrisy.
Patsy Markowitz. Left holding the empty bag.
For weeks and weeks they ignored the obviously phony 4th District candidacy of Scott Markowitz and made every effort to dismiss it as a non-story. When Marko was scooped up by the District Attorney and charged with perjury all they did was repost the DAs press release. When Marko plea bargained they then began to delete comments that questioned their obvious dereliction and bias.
When they finally reported the story of Markowitz’s guilty pleas, it was in their print edition – where nobody could comment at all, and where they continued to pretend that the fake MAGA candidate, hand-held by Democrat operative Ajay Mohan, was a real candidate, now dropping out, instead of what everybody knew was true: Markowitz was a plant to take votes away from Linda Whitaker to the benefit of Observer favorite, Vivian Jaramillo. The unstated implication was clear: Marko acted alone and any other conclusion was a Bushala conspiracy theory.
The prevarication ran deep
What all of this really means is that the Observer Sisters, despite their self-righteous posturing as an “independent news” operation, is just the opposite. Recent FFFF readers started catching on watching their performance on the Trail to Nowhere and the moronic Wilt on Wilshire where the two studiously omitted passing on relevant facts, but actively engaged in drumming up support for their cherished boondoggles.
Why write about news when you can try to make your own! (Photo by Julie Leopo/Voice of OC)
Longer term Observer observers, of course, long ago cottoned on to the preachy sanctimony and bias of the Observers, noting the disparagement, snide innuendo, and outright lies aimed at their supposed political enemies. It’s been going on for 45 years and was the stock-in-trade of the paterfamilias, Ralph Kennedy. Just a week or so ago, while they were deleting comments they permitted a salacious and defamatory comment about Councilman Fred Jung.
Of course nobody is forced to go to the Observer blog, and except for the unintended comedy, errors, misspellings and factual errors and omissions, there really is no reason. Ditto the print edition that is still killing trees for absolutely no reason. On the other hand there is no reason anybody has to treat the Observer even with the modicum of respect one might give a legitimate news outlet.
I was watching the League of Women Voter’s candidate forum a few days ago and I couldn’t help but notice how the Fullerton Boohoo darlings, Jan Flory and Vivian Jaramillo, kept attacking the incumbents for their refusal to “listen to the people.” Well, okay politics.
It’s a total waste of money, but it sure is short…
The two examples cited were the idiotic Trail to Nowhere and the equally stupid Walk on Wilshire. Ironically, the former was approved unanimously by the City Council; and Council majorities have kept the latter, the money-losing and annoying “WoW” alive for years.
If I knew what I was talking about this wouldn’t be Fullerton!
The fact is that both of these wasteful and useless “projects’ were the brain children of bureaucrats in City Hall and became the vanity projects of the egregious Ahmad Zahra and the lamentable Shana Charles who were instrumental in both cases in getting people to show up and harass anybody who might be exercising common sense. And right there to create the news and also report on it were the Kennedy Sisters, Skaskia and Sharon, who saw nothing wrong with trying to intimidate downtown businesses in the case of the moronic Waste on Wilshire.
This sort of “public support” is not organic; it’s artificial, and that’s why it’s commonly referred to as Astroturfing. Hence the irony that the same people who ginned up the “support” are the ones braying to demand that the Fullerton City Council “listen to the people.”
Well, irony isn’t the strong suit of people like Flory and Jaramillo. Neither is honesty. But self-serving sanctimony is.
Let them eat dog!
When the the idea of legalizing marijuana dispensaries in Fullerton came to the City Council in 2019, public speaker after public speaker, in English and Spanish denounced the idea as bad for Fullerton. The percentage must have been 30 to 1 against dispensaries. And where was Jan Flory, defender of the untermenschen? That’s right. She was voting to permit dispensaries in the closing months of 2019 – before the election that would usher in a new, anti-dispensary Council majority.
When the new Council revoked the Flory-Zahra-QuirkSilva dope ordinance and the vast majority again being in favor of disallowing dispensaries, guess who was there. Cannabis Kitty Jaramillo, that’s who, the enthusiastic marijuana advocate who proclaimed dispensaries were “right for Fullerton.”
Amazing how these twin pillars of public advocacy had no such interest in overwhelming public opinion when it came to legalized dope and it didn’t suit their ambitions; a public opinion, by the way, that was not ginned up by City bureaucrats, politicians or brain-dying ideologues, but that represented genuine public sentiment.
You have to enjoy it. Even when the laugh is not so much heartfelt, but the reaction to a painful example of utter head-in-the-sand stupidity; or as in this case, breathtaking lack of self-awareness.
Why write about news when you can try to make your own! (Photo by Julie Leopo/Voice of OC)
A Friend alerted me to a post on the the Yellowing Fullerton Observer website, in which the “editor” thereof, one Skasia Kennedy wrote in high dudgeon about campaign signs posted by Fred Jung and Jamie Valencia on – wait for it – public property! Railing against these criminals, Kennedy admonishes all Fullertonions to “know their rights” and report the illegal signs to the City!
It’s odd that this worthy woman and crack journalist failed to identify other lawbreakers – like Sharon Quirk, and the supporters of the massive school bonds who are in violation of the letter of the law. It’s Jung they despise over there, and of course they are all in for Vivian Jaramillo, Ms. Valencia’s opponent. It’s also amusing that they never cared about this issue before, so we can surmise a level of desperation about Jaramillo’s candidacy chances.
Anyway, it’s not Kennedy hypocrisy that this post is about, well, not exactly. It’s about a fun exchange between a reader and Ms. Editor herself, when the former accuses the latter of subjective harassment of her political adversary, Mr. Jung. Then Kennedy goes sideways-funny. Check it out:
Fullerton Troll got a good laugh out of that as well he/she might. The Fullerton Observer is and always has been about emotional responses to civic issues, especially the ones that signal some sort of virtuous liberal high ground. Well, Hell that’s easier than actually finding out real facts and reporting, right?
It’s a total waste of money, but it sure is short…
And so Kennedy and the Observer not only beat the drum for nonsense like the Trail to Nowhere and the Wake on Wilshire, they refused to print a single fact that would undermine their glandularly-charged objectives. In fact, the Kennedy women, mere et fille, have actively participated in both of those boondoggles, throwing all inconvenient objectivity aside. Emotions? Check. Preferences? Double check.
This Skasia Kennedy is so damn stupid that I really think she believes her bullshit, Running free ads in that paper for “Walk on Wilshire?” Refusing to tell the public that it’s a money loser? Refusing to even address the dozen good reasons not to waste $2,000,000 of public money on the dismal Trail to Nowhere? Do those sound like the actions of someone who is free of bias and journalistic integrity?
Spencer Custudio of the Voice of OC has a dutiful write up of last week’s League of Women Voters’ Fullerton candidate forum. One of the statements caught my eye, attributed to the strange individual Matt Truxaw, who is being offered up as a sacrificial offering by Ahmad Zahra and Fullerton Boohoo.
Here’s what Truxaw had to say on the topic of municipal finance:
When asked how to reverse the city’s finances and generate more tax revenue, Truxaw said city officials should consider expanding things like Walk on Wilshire – a closed section of Wilshire Avenue in downtown where people can dine and shop in the street that started during the pandemic.
Gone but not forgotten…
Well, Matt, you can’t “shop” in the street, so there’s that. But seriously, no one seems to have informed this poor, uninformed boob, that the Wake on Wilshiredoesn’t generaterevenue for the City of Fullerton. It never has. The taxpayer’s “investment” on this boondoggle is so far in the red that it will never make a positive contribution to the City’s bank account. But let’s not let cooler heads consider this idiocy with any sort of objectivity.
No on bothered to tell Truxaw that you can’t lose your way back to fiscal heath.
No, the Wake on Wilshire is no longer an object that a few Fullertonions can consider dispassionately. The idea of closing a public road to cars has so bewitched the credulous that they will make up any sort of nonsensical lie to defend it. And lie #1 is that the thing is, or magically can become, a money maker – instead of what it is, another Fullerton financial sinkhole.
Like the Trail to Nowhere, the Wake on Wilshire has now assumed talismanic value to its adherents; and once again, it is symbolic of two City Councilmembers “not listening to the people.” In this case “the people” is a new set of half a dozen goobers dredged up by public health doctor, Shana Charles and few other Fullerton Observer nitwits.
The public health doctor is in…
City councilmember are supposed to be leaders. And you don’t lead by indulging the stupid make-work projects of your bureaucrats. You’re supposed to be able to ask honest questions and demand honest answers. But this is Fullerton, where no bad idea ever dies…so long as the public employees and their enablers want it.
It’s axiomatic that when government agencies get money from some external source they often display a casual attitude toward spending it intelligently. Thus we get boondoggles like the infamous Trail to Nowhere, paid for mostly by a State grant.
The latest example of this is an $800,000 grant handed to Fullerton by Caltrans meant to improve transit centers. Here’s the staff report intro:
BACKGROUND AND DISCUSSION The City received funding to enhance and beautify areas in and around the Fullerton Transportation Center (FTC) through a competitive grant application process. The City used the grant to work with a consultant to establish a downtown brand and wayfinding program to assist mass transit users navigate the downtown area and improve visitation. The FTC is one of the higher ridership stations in the region serving over 400,000 riders annually. The project would capitalize on visitors using both Amtrak and Metrolink services.
At the last council meeting Community and Economic Development Director Sunayana Thomas and ED underling, Taylor Samuelson presented the fruits of all their labor so far in their effort to expend the Caltrans largesse.
And what they came up with is mostly just comical. And unnecessary.
It seems that our staff thinks the the most important way to “enhance” the FTC is by installing news signs. But of course “signs” is far too simple a concept, which instead is called “wayfinding,” a term implying that people are just too stupid to know where they’re going while “navigating.” But of course we know this whole thing is just make work for our crack “economic development” team who don’t develop anything except our pension obligation to them.
Of course a sign is inextricably tied to the notion of “branding,” an advertising phrase co-opted by bureaucrats pretending they have something to sell. And boy do they think they can “capitalize” on visitors. Why branding downtown Fullerton has anything to do with Caltrans is beyond me, but I leave that to greater minds to ponder.
Here are some branding ideas displayed at the council meeting.
Legendary music history? Local charm? A carnation? Botanical attributes? Modern and timeless theme? WT everlasting F? We paid somebody for this nonsense?
And, of course, new signs, repeating the theme, just in case you didn’t get it the first time.
Naturally, the “brand” looks outdated even before it’s installed on the signage, and we can be sure that in less than ten years the reigning economic development experts will be calling for a new brand, the old being so embarrassing. But in the meantime, fear not. The signs will be printed on “retroflective” vinyl attached to rigid aluminum panels.
The funniest idea of all is the notion of a “gantry” sign spanning Harbor Boulevard, welcoming people to downtown Fullerton.
Superfluous gantry sign
Of course there already is a sign on the old UP bridge doing just that a few hundred feet to the south:
And how much is this nonsense going to cost the taxpayers of California? Check out the budget:
That’s $322,000, give or take, if you count thirty-one grand for some sort of mural. That’s a whopping 40% of the entire grant that is supposed to freshen up the Fullerton Transportation Center.
When you see this sort of circle wank, you really have to wonder if there is anybody providing any sort of adult supervision in City Hall when you look at footling crap like this.